JEFFREY GOLDBERG: This is what President Trump seems to enjoy the most, holding court in the Oval Office, Mar-a-Lago North, and hosting and sometimes lecturing world leaders, scenes projecting power, potency, and his central role in the conduct of world affairs, where there's a different reality outside the Oval Office, one in which polls are showing him unpopular with the majority of American voters, one in which Democrats just swept key races, indicating people are impatient and unhappy with the country's direction, next.

Good evening and welcome to Washington Week.

The main topic of concern this week for the practical minded at least is this, does the American air traffic control system still work?

And if it isn't working, who's to blame?

We'll talk about the government shutdown now, the longest in history, and we'll talk about some other bad signs for the president's political standing tonight with Leigh Ann Caldwell, the chief Washington correspondent at Puck, David Ignatius is a foreign affairs columnist at The Washington Post, Mark Leibovich is a staff writer at The Atlantic, and Jeff Zeleny is the chief national affairs correspondent for CNN, chief.

Be careful the way you address him.

Thank you all for being here.

Leigh Ann, let me start with you.

So, America, our country, is the world's sole remaining superpower.

It can project force into any corner of the world, it has the world's largest economy, but we can't seem to get people to work in the air traffic control system so the flights are being canceled left and right.

I guess this is because the government doesn't work.

But what I need to know from you is who to blame.

Who to blame?

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, Chief Washington Correspondent, Puck: Who blame?

Well, that's a good question.

If you ask the Democrats, it's the Republicans' fault.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I'm asking you.

I'm asking you this.

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: If you ask the Republicans, it the Democrats' fault.

So, I'm not going to put any blame except for all of them are to blame because the Democrats are absolutely right, Republicans control the three branches of government, they need at least seven Democrats in order to get votes to fund the government, but the Republicans have not, until now, negotiated with Democrats to find those votes.

The Democrats are bringing in a completely unrelated issue, this issue of healthcare, because they have no leverage at any other time in this government because they have a president who will only work with Republicans.

And so they're using this to try to make a point and to get Republicans to the table to negotiate on an issue that is important to them, and that's these Affordable Care Act subsidies.

So, now we're 38 days into a government shutdown.

It is really starting to hit the American public.

People are starting to feel it.

And, you know, probably, most impactfully, are the people who can't afford food who are in food stamps, the SNAP program.

And the administration tonight is trying to appeal a court order to pay those benefits up.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Now, that doesn't make the government look so great.

It doesn't make the Trump administration look so great.

Jeff, I mean, who is -- forget the reality of it.

From an optics perspective, who is in the most danger here?

Who's in the most political danger?

The SNAP issue seems more dire for obvious reasons than the air traffic control system, although that is a sign of dysfunction.

JEFF ZELENY, Chief National Affairs Correspondent, CNN: I mean, particularly going into, we're three weeks before Thanksgiving, we're kind of focused on right as we're going into the holidays.

And the idea that the administration has chosen to not find money to fund the food assistance program for some 42 million Americans, one in eight Americans, but they have found money for military payments and ICE officers and others, that's a choice.

It's a choice by the administration, but it is beginning to catch up with the administration and Republicans.

You heard the president say it himself this week when he blamed the election fallout on the shutdown.

And he had a previously scheduled lunch with Republicans on Wednesday morning, the morning after the election, and he was very angry and he's angry about the shutdown.

But he's not really doing anything to sort of bring it to an end.

But, look, I think this week felt to me like a turning point.

Who knows how long it will go, but the president was angry today, talking about, you know, how Americans just aren't seeing all what he's doing, I brought down costs, he hasn't, and that's what he promised to do one year ago.

So, to me, at least this week seemed somewhat different.

We'll see if it sort of brings it into the shutdown.

The Senate is staying in this weekend, which is something they've not done for any of the other, what, five weekends.

So, I think by next week -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: But you want to pace yourself.

JEFF ZELENY: Sure.

Yes, tough work.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I just realized that the way you phrased it, we're right now in the season of people in large numbers flying home to eat vast quantities of food.

And it's interesting that SNAP is directly affecting people's ability to eat and to fly home.

I mean, that doesn't make the people in charge look very good.

I mean, Mark, do you expect them to actually come to a conclusion soon on this now that the president seems to be seized by the idea that this is not good for him?

MARK LEIBOVICH, Staffer Writer, The Atlantic: I mean, not necessarily.

I mean, one, Democrats seem to be much more dug in than they were before Tuesday.

I mean, I think they seem emboldened by Tuesday's elections, which Democrats did very well.

And also, I mean, Trump might be angry and frustrated and he might be telling Republicans this, but it's not like he's coming to this from a place of humility.

Maybe we should back off on A, B or C. No, he's doubling down.

He's saying, no, let's kill the filibuster, which is a complete non-starter.

So, it seems like wasted energy at this point and also something that's counterproductive within, you know, within the Republican Party.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: David, you watched Washington for quite a while.

There probably has been other periods of kind of dumb dysfunction.

This one has to rank pretty high.

DAVID INGATIUS, Columnist, The Washington Post: This is the breakdown of our government.

This shutdown stretching toward two months, heading toward Thanksgiving, when everybody wants to fly home, our air traffic system is, you know, having to slow down, you want to say is on the verge of beginning to break.

And I worry that the Democrats effort, as Leigh Ann said, to try to make a point.

The point that they're trying to make is through causing pain for the people by, you know, holding fast and, you know, showing that Trump is, you know, refusing to make concessions on healthcare.

I just worry that that strategy is about to crack up.

If the Democrats could take the win that they had this week, you know, this is a week the Democrats just rolled in the Tuesday elections, and this is a moment when they, as a party that's confident, I think, could find a path towards a compromise that to make them look good and make the country feel like -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Where they simply come out and say we want everybody to eat and fly around.

DAVID IGNATIUS: Yes, but they're the party that's going to solve this problem.

I can easily see, as I say, a way to take a win and they don't seem to want to do that.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Mark, the big victories this week, how big?

Who are they?

LEIBOVICH: I would say -- so you're talking about New Jersey, Virginia governor's races.

There's a New York Mayor's race, which doesn't really count because that was sort of an intra Democratic.

I mean, New York is not -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We'll put a pin in that because I want to challenge that.

MARK LEIBOVICH: I think they're big.

I mean, I think both in some -- I mean, Abigail Spanberger was basically seen as the favorite in Virginia.

She won, and Mikie Sherrill, less of a favorite in Virginia, both of them won -- sorry, in New Jersey.

Both of them won resoundingly.

I think the margins are what has gotten everyone's attention.

They both won by double digits.

You know, the California ballot initiative passed pretty easily.

So -- and also in some smaller district races.

I mean, it was across the board.

So, I do think that it was such a rout.

It has to get people's attention more than your normal off-year election would.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Jeff, what does it mean to you, this victory?

JEFF ZELENY: I mean, look, the margins are so key here.

I think two things, the message and the margins.

How did they win?

I spent quite a bit of time on the campaign trail the last few weeks with both Spanberger and Mikie Sherrill, as well as their opponents, and how they were talking about President Trump was totally different.

Not talking about arguments of democracy, not talking about sort of bigger picture things.

They were talking about tangible things the Trump administration has and has not done.

In New Jersey, for example, the gateway tunnel project, the president angry at Chuck Schumer, so he is going to stop that project, a huge infrastructure project.

That's jobs for New Jersey.

In Virginia, the shutdown was front and center, but more than that, just everything this administration has done to scientists, to federal workers.

But Abigail Spanberger rarely talked about Donald Trump in ways that Democrats were a year ago.

So, I think the message, how they won and the size of the victory is absolutely -- it, A, gives Democrats a shot in the arm, but it's a bit more than that.

I think it offers a bit of a roadmap.

When you look at the blue arrows that show that every county in Virginia, with the exception of 1 and all 21 counties in New Jersey went bluer, places like Loudoun County right outside D.C.

here, it's interesting.

And that's why Republicans are rattled by this.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to come back to this issue of the New York City mayoral race.

The obvious observation people are making is that New York's -- as Brooklyn goes, so goes Queens, it's -- which is not actually true.

But the point is that New York City's electorate is so different than the average American county electorate, that it doesn't mean what Democratic socialists might want it to mean.

But Tremendous amount of energy and young people like seeing a person who's not 85 be smart and telegenic and talk about fairness.

So, Spanberger, leading indicator of something, or Mamdani maybe meaning something too?

MARK LEIBOVICH: I think both in that, first of all, they're both under 85, right?

They're both under 55.

Yes, I mean, I don't know how -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: They're both under 50.

MARK LEIBOVICH: They're both under 50.

So, I do think you can get away with a lot with it when it's seen as a youth movement, especially given the gerontocracy that's been in control of the Democratic Party for the last year.

DAVID IGNATIUS: The Democrats debate this week, I think, has to be, you know, who did win in the party if you're a moderate national security Democrat, like Mikie Sherrill, like Aga Abigail Spanberger.

You'd say, our view of where the party should be, you know, absolutely thrived.

If you're a progressive, you point to Mamdani.

And I think the Democrats are going to have to struggle to work that out.

Like what is the sole identity of the party?

And I think that it's absolutely true that the winner was youth and the idea of turning the page to something different, you know?

That's the one thing that unites all these races.

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: So, the thing that most Democrats that I talk to say is that this is finally a realization that they all can win as being a Democrat.

They all ran on the issue of affordability.

They all met their districts or their states where they were in the sense that they represented the people that they were trying to get votes from adequately.

Mamdani in very liberal New York City, Abigail Spanberger, who was also talking to rural voters in Virginia, and the suburban voters in New Jersey with Mikie Sherrill.

And so Democrats feel very confident that after years and years of requiring litmus tests on if you are a good Democrat or not, where the party moved to the left, that it's now, for the first time, point, case points, that you can be a Democrat and win as long as you are representing your district.

I was talking to a Democratic source yesterday and they said, one of the things that they're most excited about are two Democrats flipped seats from red to blue in Georgia for the Public Service Utility Commission, but it was statewide election and that in red Georgia.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: No.

That could certainly turn out to be more important than the York City mayoral race.

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: Right, exactly.

MARK LEIBOVICH: Oh, absolutely.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You know, that could be bigger than the mayor's, right?

I mean, we don't know.

But speaking of the mayor, Jeff, the idea that the Republicans are going to hang Mamdani around the necks of the party's reputation, obviously people are talking about this.

Does Mamdani pose a threat to the Democrats in the sense that the Republicans will say, this guy is the face of the Democratic Party?

Forget all these moderate national security Democrats.

JEFF ZELENY: The mayor of New York is going to show up in more midterm election ads in races that are hundreds and thousands of miles away, without a doubt.

But I think it's a lot -- it's a much harder argument for Republicans to make because of Spanberger and Sherrill.

If they had won one of them and lost the other, I think it would've been sort of easier.

But Mamdani is one of the faces of the party, but to your point, it's a big tent.

But Spanberger, Abigail Spanberger, I was thinking to an interview she gave just a few years ago talking about socialism and socialist.

I mean, she said that is not part of the party.

So, it's a very different wing of the party.

But the question for Democrats going forward, how big can their tent be?

We used to talk about Republicans having a big tent.

Now their tent is smaller.

But I think that we will see.

But, yes, he's going to be an issue in the midterms, of course.

JEFFREY GOLBERG: Yes.

MARK LEIBOVICH: I just think that it's easier to get away with a big tent in the midterms when you -- I mean, you're obviously not going to run Zohran Mamdani in Texas, right?

I mean, you can actually cater, you can pick candidates that work for your state, for your Congressional district and what have you.

I think the real reckoning is going to come in 2028 when you actually have to pick one candidate and one ticket.

And, I mean, is there going to be like an AOC versus a, I don't know, Governor Pritzker, Governor Newsom, whoever.

I mean, I think that's really when the debates come.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I mean, are we going to see this kind of blow apart?

Like now that the fight has been joined, you got your national security moderates, which are the majority of the party elected officials, and you've got the squad 2.0, Mamdani and his godfather, AOC.

DAVID IGNATIUS: So, there's going to be a battle for the soul of the party.

On Wednesday, the day after this amazing Democratic set of victories, I went up to Capitol Hill to a gathering of candidates who want to flip Republican seats.

They were in for the Democrats had a week for candidates.

And it was fascinating talking to them how each of them was, as one person said, almost running for mayor of their district, focusing on local issues, the advice they were getting from some prominent Democrats who hosted this was, you know, distance yourself from the national party.

Don't hang national Democratic Party issues around your neck.

You know, see what's happening in your district.

Talk about affordability issues.

And so my takeaway was, you know, that is probably going to be the unifying spirit for the party, is be local, you know, don't get dragged down by the issues that were so prominent in 2024.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: One of the most important Democrats in generations announced that she's retiring this week, obviously a grand strategist of the party, very successful speaker, Nancy Pelosi.

Jeff, who replaces her as a tough strategist in this party?

JEFF ZELENY: The short answer is no one.

I mean, Nancy Pelosi has been at this for four decades.

The Affordable Care Act would not have happened without her.

The opposition to the Iraq War in '06 and '07 was brewing because of her.

There was no one with the longevity or depth in her range across the, you know, from national security views to a domestic policy views really isn't replicated by anyone that I can think of on Capitol Hill.

But I do think that she has many people who were in her wake, and we've talked about a couple of them right now, Abigail Spanberger and Mikie Sherrill, two examples of people who came into Congress in 2018, Elissa Slotkin, for example, these national security Democrats.

So, in some respects they do.

But in terms of the pure raw politics of it, I don't see anyone, any one individual replacing her.

She did sort of install Hakeem Jeffries.

I mean, he was her choice, so she'll be with him.

But Hakeem Jeffries is not Nancy Pelosi and he knows that.

I think he'd be the first to say that.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Leigh Ann, would he be the first to say that?

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: He would be the first to also say he is so tired of being compared to Nancy Pelosi too.

But, yes, she had the confidence to make sure that he was the next Democratic leader but he also faces the curse of having to be compared to the person who is considered by Republicans and Democrats to be the greatest speaker that there has been in the House of Representatives.

And it's a tough task for Democrats moving forward, especially as the redistricting is happening, the country is more polarized and the margins in the House of Representatives are going to be perpetually extremely small for the foreseeable future.

And it makes it very difficult to govern, makes it difficult to keep the party together.

And those are things that Nancy Pelosi is masterful at.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to talk about a figure on the Republican side who was as important to Republican politics as Nancy Pelosi was to Democratic, Vice President Dick Cheney, who died this week.

It's interesting if you're 20 or 25 years old now, if you're thinking about Dick Cheney, you think, oh, that's the guy who endorsed Kamala Harris.

But, Mark, you've -- LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: That's me.

I'm the 25-year-old.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's you.

But you've spent a lot of time thinking about Dick Cheney.

Hawks hawk, conservatives conservative, totally alienated or the party, the MAGA party is totally alienated from the Dick Cheney legacy.

Give us a little sense of the meaning of his life and his post-vice presidency.

MARK LEIBOVICH: Yes, I mean, he was -- again, I mean, this is sort of generational, but he was such a giant in the Bush years.

I mean, first of all, there's never been a vice president like him in terms of power, in terms of profile, in terms of the agenda he had.

But also he so welcomed the Darth Vader image, the sort of prince of darkness thing, you know, both within the party, but certainly among Democrats.

And he, I think, took a lot of heat from it, but he welcomed it.

He was -- I don't think I've ever covered anyone who was so sure in his position, had so little self-doubt, which in politics is so rare than Dick Cheney.

And I think he was secure enough to really flip in the other direction, and not only condemn Donald Trump, but actually go the whole nine yards and endorse Kamala Harris, which, you know, even like John Bolton wasn't endorsing Kamala Harris.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And, David, you have to acknowledge the idea of Dick Cheney endorsing a liberal Democrat was probably 10, 15, 20 years ago.

If we were talking about that, we were like, yes, no, that's never going to happen.

DAVID IGNATIUS: Hard to -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Politics is very strange these days.

DAVID IGNATIUS: He was the rare politician who gave you the sense that he didn't really give a damn what the public thought that he was going to do, what he was convinced was necessary.

That was certainly true after 9/11.

He believed in his gut that the country was in danger of catastrophic attacks, and he was prepared to do things that, as we look back, were shocked by.

He advocated in Iraq war that you arguably was ruinous for the country.

But he did it with absolute, unflinching certainty.

That's the thing I take away from him.

He's just not a man who ever seemed to be in doubt.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Is there any -- Jeff, is there any constituency in the Republican Party today for the Dick Cheney style of leadership or foreign policy thinking?

JEFF ZELENY: Virtually, no, certainly not in the House.

A few are remaining in the Senate, but no one really speaks widely about it.

I mean, his funeral will be interesting, which is in a couple weeks.

It will be an interesting show of it's really the old guard.

But I'm also struck by, right after 9/11, I mean, the images were so -- coming back to our minds this week.

He was very certain of what he was doing, of course.

But the breadth of his experience, I mean, he had been a secretary of defense, obviously, he had been a young White House chief of staff.

There's just really no one in that mold now who knows government as well as he did.

And Donald Trump obviously has created this Republican Party in his own image.

So, no, a Dick Cheney Republican is not really welcomed in this realm.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It's interesting because there's nobody in the Trump universe, I think, with the wiles or savviness of Cheney.

There's nobody in the Democratic field with the wiles or savviness of Nancy Pelosi.

Maybe it's just something you accumulate over time, but it definitely marks a huge passage for American politics.

And, well, before we end tonight, I want to mentioned something.

We want to remember another great Washingtonian, but this one member of Washington Week extended family, Paul Ignatius, who died this week at the heroic age of 104.

Paul Ignatius served his country faithfully for years, most famously as secretary of the Navy, and I wanted to express our condolences to his son, David, and his whole family.

David, will you talk a little bit about your father who was this very rare Washington figure?

And he served in World War II and he kept serving.

DAVID IGNATIUS: He did keep serving.

This is a period where there's a great disillusionment with government, and my dad had a just unshakeable belief in public service.

I can remember over the last couple years friends would invite him to come to the White House or the State Department to talk to young staffers there.

And here was this man, over a hundred years old, who would, you know, tell these young people just to keep believing and doing, and it makes a difference.

He talk about how he came into government in 1961 working for President Kennedy.

And, you know, they seem to come away, you know, glowing a little bit.

This, you know, a hundred year old man had told them that it all made sense, but it's a wonderful quality and I'm -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Did he ever the -- this period where government is considered anathema by some Republicans and many other Americans, did he ever have doubts about where we're heading, even as he is watching?

DAVID IGNATIUS: He certainly had doubts about leadership.

It pained him enormously to see the military, in his view, becoming politicized.

He'd served in the Navy during World War II.

He was on a carrier that was hit several times by Japanese suicide bombers.

He came to the war that, you know, made him of the person he was, as so many people in his generation.

He really did think the, you know, independence of the military was absolutely sacred.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Well, I just want to note that the USS Paul Ignatius, U.S.

Naval Destroyer is currently on patrol in the Mediterranean.

So, your father sails on.

DAVID IGNATIUS: So, my dad was asked to give a motto for the ship and he chose his USC motto, always ready, fight on.

And that's true about my dad.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, a great man.

And, alas, that's all the time we have.

Thank you for that memory.

And thank you to our guests for joining me.

I want to thank you at home for watching us.

Please visit theatlantic.com for Mark Leibovich's analysis of life and times of Dick Cheney.

I'm Jeffrey Goldberg.

Goodnight from Washington.