Welcome Dr.

Mel Schrems, associate professor of history at St.

Lawrence University.

We're really glad to have you here.

- Thank you.

- So tell us what part of American history is your main point of view or your main area of study?

- I'd say my main area of study is the American founding.

So it would be the colonial wars and then the American Revolution, War of 1812.

I think I sort of fade out around the 1830s, but I really enjoy the entire narrative.

- And as America prepares to celebrate its 250th anniversary, it's perfect timing to have you here with us.

I think when most people think about the American Revolution, we go straight to the colonists versus the British.

What's missing from that story?

- Oh, there's a lot missing from that.

I think what people say now about the relationship or any relationship is that it's complicated.

So they're colonists, but they're not all on the same side.

The British, the people who are not colonists, are also not all on the same side.

So you've got Americans who are very much aware that to finish what they start will make them traitors, and they're not wanting to do that because the wages of being a traitor would be death.

And so it's a very serious decision and we find most Americans making that decision as late as possible.

So the idea that patriots spring up, ready to throw off the shackles of Britain, not accurate.

And I actually find that very admirable.

You only have one life and colonists are very much aware of that.

And so they're very careful about what they're going to do with that life.

And then we also have the idea that the British are all against the Americans, but actually on the floor of parliament, you have members of parliament making speeches in favor, not of the revolution, but trying to see the point of view of the Americans.

- How does New York State fit into this complicated picture at the time?

- You can't have the story without New York.

You just cannot.

Colonists are really important.

The British are really important.

The indigenous population that has been here forever is important.

Also, colonists or members of the community brought here against their will, like Africans or sometimes we call them Atlantic Creoles.

They all appear in New York.

England is not the only identity.

English is not the only identity for colonists.

And in New York, especially in Northern New York, we're basically, certainly up in Ogdensburg, up at Fort Lauder presentation, you're looking at New France.

I teach at St.

Lawrence University and I tell my students all the time, we're not in New England, we're really in New France.

So it's really important to be aware of that.

And New York is interesting in that, yes, New York City becomes a center of loyalists, but the rest of New York, especially this part and further north, we're sort of on a border and we're very much aware that we have different choices to make.

And so if you could only study one state, and I was born and raised in Massachusetts, so I'm going to say after Massachusetts, I would say it's New York.

New York is extremely important.

- Let's talk about the indigenous nations in New York.

How were they impacted at the time?

- The indigenous nations, I would say, especially around Deck Park and where I teach and I live, would be the Haudenosaunee Confederacy.

Some people still think of them as the Iroquois Confederacy, although the term Iroquois is falling out of use.

Haudenosaunee as a Confederacy represent many different nations, six nations on this side, seven on the Canadian side.

And they're not all in agreement.

For the most part, if we were to poll them, the vast majority of them want to just stay out of it.

They've participated in colonial wars.

They've seen, for lack of a better word, that colonists cannot, at the end of the day, cannot be trusted to keep the promises that are made.

Even though there are good actors, these people don't seem to be in positions of authority.

And so many of them, many of the Haudenosaunee decide they just want to sit it out.

The two different sides, the Oneida on one side and the Mohawks on the other, the Oneida decide that they're going to side with the Americans.

Now I said the Mohawks are on the other side, but in reality, the Mohawks themselves, members of the nation, are split, not evenly because there's never an even split, but there are ones who are very much in favor of supporting the British while others are insistent on supporting the Americans.

- What did they risk by picking a side at that time?

- I want to say, I think it'd be very dramatic to say they risked everything, but to be fair, they risked everything no matter what they chose.

In attempting to stay out of it, Haudenosaunee still come under the consideration of the leader of the continental army, a man in the Haudenosaunee narrative whose name translates to town destroyer.

He takes it upon himself.

He lays out his generals.

He has them cut a swath through the Haudenosaunee Confederacy from where we are now down through Buffalo that decimates them.

And it's done to people, to nations who have done their best to stay out of it.

It's so brutal and so complete that he gets the name or he's given the name Town Destroyer.

We know this man is General George Washington.

So doing nothing risks everything.

Doing something, I think the risk is as great, but there's a tiny possibility you might win.

In my mind, it reminds me of the Civil War, the English Civil War, where single houses split and fought on either side in the hopes of preserving what was going on, right?

The Oneida side with the Americans and certainly right after the war, they're winners, it sides in their favor.

And traditional Haudenosaunee territory up in Canton, Potsdam, Ogdensburg area, traditionally Oneida and in also Mohawk.

And so that's the good thing, right?

For the Mohawks, those who side with the British, they stand in very good stead with the British.

Initially, certainly right after, they benefit, I would say, more than the people who tried to stay out of it.

But as I said, within the Mohawk Nation, they're split along the lines of who will side with whom, people like Joseph Brandt, Molly Brandt, they lead Mohawks to side with the English, and then people like Colonel Louis Cook, he and others, other Mohawks centered mostly in Ganawage.

These people decide that they're going to side with the Americans, and so they sort of benefit.

One of the reasons it doesn't show up in the regular narrative of most things is because it's complicated.

- It's complicated.

That seems to be the key word.

Let's talk about Black communities in New York at the time of the revolution.

How were they impacted?

What did they risk?

- It's an excellent question.

Black communities in New York.

In New York State or up here in Northern New York?

- Let's keep it local.

- Okay.

Thank you.

Most people sort of assume that Americans of African descent are not present in this narrative, and they definitely are.

There are not as many, but they certainly are here.

And the risk is not so much a risk as an opportunity.

Conflict breeds opportunity and something as devastating, potentially as devastating as a war leads to greater benefit.

And by that, you have people on either side who need other bodies, other people to fight.

Initially, George Washington is not interested in opening up the Continental Army or any of the armies to service from African Americans.

He's not interested in it.

He doesn't want it.

People can say he's a Virginian and he's not thinking about that, but eventually he finds much to his surprise, but not to ours, that everyone isn't willing to go out and risk their lives because the war, the American Revolution, isn't going well at all.

It looks really bleak.

Up until the battles of Saratoga, the Americans are absolutely going to lose and nobody wants to risk that.

And so desperate for manpower, Washington changes his mind.

Desperate for manpower, people open up, right?

The English know this, and I really think of this as if there's Warcraft 101, I always remind my students that if you know your enemy is oppressing a group as the opponent, if you do not find a way to communicate to that oppressed group that you offer them freedom, you're not doing it right.

So when we have Lord Dunsmore in Virginia, okay, the English sort of say, "If you make it over here, if you come to us, we will allow you freedom," that is taken up.

With Washington and others, when they make the same offer out of desperation, people of color, African Americans accept that as well, because out of all of this, no matter which side they fight on, their goal is to be free.

- Dr.

Schrems, we are unfortunately out of time, but it's been such a pleasure.

Thank you so much for your insight.

- Thank you for having me.