>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> A LOT OF THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION IS RIGHTLY SAYING THAT TIME IS RUNNING OUT AND THAT IS WHY I THINK, ACTUALLY, WE SHOULD GO FOR AN IMMEDIATE CEASE-FIRE.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP GROWS IMPATIENT WITH RUSSIA'S WAR IN UKRAINE.

80 YEARS SINCE VE DAY, I DISCUSS SECURITY IN EUROPE WITH THE PRESIDENT OF FINLAND, ALEXANDER STUBB.

THEN -- >> IT IS ONE BIG PUZZLE.

ONLY WHEN WE CRACKED OPEN THE NETWORK THAT WE UNDERSTOOD THE TRUE SCALE OF THE SECRET MACHINE.

>> EXPOSING KREMLIN SPIES.

MY CONVERSATION WITH JOURNALIST CHRISTO GROZEV AND FILM MAKER JAMES JONES ABOUT "ANTIDOTE ", THEIR FILM ABOUT WHISTLEBLOWERS STANDING UP TO VLADIMIR PUTIN.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> THE MONEY THAT TRUMP AND HIS FAMILY ARE GENERATING THROUGH THE CRYPTOCURRENCY VENTURES IS MONEY THEY HAVE TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT WITH.

>> THE GROWING TRUMP CRYPTO EMPIRE, "THE NEW YORK TIMES" DAVID YAFFE-BELLANY INVESTIGATES THE TRUMP FAMILY'S NEWEST BUSINESS VENTURE.

>>> AMANPOUR & CO IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM .

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION AND LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS .

MARK J. BLECHNER .

THE FILOMEN M. DGOSTINO FOUNDATION .

SETON J. MELVIN .

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND .

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KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS .

AND, BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON , WHERE ALL THIS WEEK, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN WORKING 80 YEARS SINCE THE END OF WORLD WAR II, INCLUDING RUSSIA, WITH A MILITARY PARADE COMMEMORATING THE SOVIET UNION'S ROLE IN DEFEATING GERMANY.

THERE IS NO VICTORY INSIGHT FOR UKRAINE, STILL UNDER BRUTAL RUSSIAN ATTACK FOR OVER THREE YEARS.

>> Translator: LAW AND JUSTICE IS ON OUR SIDE.

THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, THE ENTIRE UNITED PEOPLE, THE CONFIDENCE OF THE SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION.

WE ARE PROUD OF THEM.

THEIR SPIRIT HAS ALWAYS BROUGHT US ONLY VICTORY.

>> PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP TO END THE WAR IN 24 HOURS BUT MONTHS INTO HIS SECOND TERM, NEGOTIATIONS HAVE STALLED.

TRUMP'S DIPLOMACY HAS BEEN UNABLE OR COASTER.

FROM RESTARTING DIALOGUE WITH THE KREMLIN TO PUBLICLY ARGUING WITH PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, TO SIGNING A NEW MINERALS DEAL WITH UKRAINE.

WHERE DO NEGOTIATIONS STAND NOW AND CAN TAKE OVER THE SECURITY BURDEN?

ONE MAN YOU MIGHT HAVE AN INSIGHT INTO TRUMP'S TACTICS IS THE PRESIDENT OF FINLAND, ALEXANDER STUBB.

HE SPENT HOURS COUGHING AND MEETING WITH TRUMP IN MARCH AND WAS SEATED NEXT TO HIM AT THE FUNERAL OF POPE FRANCIS.

PRESIDENT ALEXANDER STUBB JOINED ME FROM OSLO.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> LET ME ASK YOU FIRST TO PUT INTO CONTEXT WHEN YOU ARE IN OSLO.

YOU HAVE 10 NATO MEMBERS , UKRAINE, VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY IS JOINING BY VIDEO.

WHAT IS IT YOU ARE DISCUSSING, PARTICULARLY IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT LOOKS TO BE A NEW VERSION OF TRANSATLANTIC, FIGURING OUT THE TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE, IF THERE STILL IS ONE?

>> IT IS THE JOINT EXPEDITIONARY FORCE AND IT WAS AN IDEA THAT WAS PUT FORWARD BY THE UNITED KINGDOM ACTUALLY BEFORE FINLAND AND SWEDEN JOIN NATO.

HERE WE ARE, THE FIVE NORDIC STATES, THREE BALTIC STATES, THE NETHERLANDS AND UNITED KINGDOM.

BASICALLY, WE ARE LOOKING AT WHAT WE CAN DO TOGETHER IN THE ARCTIC REGION AND IN THE BALTIC AND SO IT IS NOT A NEW CONCOCTION BUT WE WORK TOGETHER ON DIFFERENT TYPES OF SECURITY ISSUES, VERY USEFUL FOR THEM.

>> IT MAY NOT BE A NEW CONCOCTION AND NOW YOU ARE PART OF NATO, THIS WAS SUGGESTED BEFORE THAT, BUT IT COMES IN THE CONTEXT OF AN ENTIRELY NEW DISPOSITION BY THE UNITED STATES UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHO IS SEEN TO BE STRAINING THE TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE, THROWING A LOT MORE RESPONSIBILITY ON YOU ON IN EUROPE.

CAN I JUST FIRST START BY ASKING YOU, WHAT WAS YOUR CONVERSATION LIKE WHEN YOU MET PRESIDENT TRUMP AND SPENT HOURS COUGHING WITH HIM AND TALKING TO HIM IN MARCH I THINK IT ONCE?

WHAT DID YOU SAY TO EACH OTHER THAT GIVES YOU CLARITY OR MAYBE CONFIDENCE ABOUT NATO AND THE TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE?

>> I GUESS THE STARTING POINT IS TO SAY WHAT HAPPENS ON THE GOLF COURSE STAYS ON THE GOLF COURSE.

>> NO, PLEASE.

>> BASICALLY, ON A GOLF COURSE, A LOT OF IT IS SOCIAL.

IT GAVE US AN OPPORTUNITY TO DISCUSS A FEW ISSUES.

WE TALKED ABOUT BILATERAL THINGS, SO FINLAND AND THE U.S. WE TALKED ABOUT NATO.

AT THE TIME, WE TALKED ABOUT RUSSIA'S WAR OF AGGRESSION IN UKRAINE.

IT IS NORMAL DIPLOMATIC DISCOURSE THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO DO IN THESE KINDS OF SITUATIONS.

THIS IS THE JOB OF PRESIDENTS, TO TRY TO INFLUENCE EACH OTHER AND HAVE CONVERSATIONS.

I DO SAY ONE THING.

THERE IS NOTHING SO FAR THAT I HAVE HEARD FROM THE PRESIDENT OR THE PRESIDENT'S ADMINISTRATION OR PEOPLE AROUND HIM WHICH WOULD REDUCE THE COMMITMENT OF THE UNITED STATES 10 NATO.

QUITE THE CONTRARY, THE AMERICANS ARE PUSHING THE EUROPEANS AND OTHER ALLIES TO TAKE MORE RESPONSIBILITY AND I THINK THE AMERICANS ALL RIGHT FOR DOING THAT.

>> THAT IS FINE I HAVE TO GET BACK TO THAT IN A MINUTE BUT ALSO PRESIDENT TRUMP, AFTER A CERTAIN TIME OF REACHING OUT TO VLADIMIR PUTIN, TRYING TO DRAW HIM IN WITH HONEY, IF YOU LIKE, BLAMING VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY FOR ALL OF THIS, HE APPEARS TO BE HAVING A CHANGE OF HEART, AT LEAST PUBLICLY.

THIS IS AFTER THE VATICAN MEETING AND I BELIEVE YOU WERE SENT NEXT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP DURING THE FUNERAL.

HE SAID THERE WAS NO REASON FOR VLADIMIR PUTIN TO BE SHOOTING MISSILES INTO CIVILIAN AREAS, CITIES AND TOWNS.

IT MAKES ME THINK MAYBE HE DOESN'T WANT TO STOP THE WAR AND HE'S JUST TAPPING ME A LONG AND HAS TO BE DEALT WITH DIFFERENTLY.

IN THE LAST 24 HOURS, JD VANCE SAID RUSSIA IS, "ASKING FOR TOO MUCH IN CONCESSIONS."

DO YOU THINK THEY ARE HAVING A MOMENT OF CLARITY, A CHANGE OF HEART?

>> WELL, I THINK PEACE NEGOTIATIONS AND NEGOTIATIONS ABOUT CEASE-FIRE ARE ALWAYS VERY COMPLEX AND THERE IS ALWAYS A ROAD THAT YOU TAKE AND YOU HAVE DIFFERENT STEPS ON THE ROAD.

I THINK IN THE BEGINNING, THE AMERICANS, RIGHTLY, TRIED TO CONVINCE THE RUSSIANS TO JOIN THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

NOW, I THINK THE RESPONSE WE ARE SEEING FROM RUSSIA IS HAPHAZARD OR ACTUALLY NEGATIVE.

NOW, A LOT OF THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION IS RIGHTLY SAYING THAT TIME IS RUNNING OUT AND THAT IS WHY I THINK, ACTUALLY, WE SHOULD GO FOR AN IMMEDIATE CEASE-FIRE.

THE AMERICANS HAVE SUGGESTED IT, THE UKRAINIANS HAVE AGREED TO IT, THE EUROPEANS SUPPORT IT AND THE ONLY ONE WHO DOESN'T WANT PEACE, ACTUALLY, IS RUSSIA.

I THINK THE AMERICANS WANT PEACE MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE AND NOW THE TACTIC MIGHT BE CHANGING A LITTLE.

>> HOW DO YOU SEE IT PLAYING OUT?

WE ARE SPEAKING IN THE CONTEXT OF RUSSIA HAVING ITS OWN VE DAY, REMEMBERING THE GREAT WAR, AS THEY CALL IT.

PRESIDENT XI JINPING HAS COME TO STAND SHOULDER TO SHOULDER WITH PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN ON THE REVIEWING STAND IN THE KREMLIN.

ACTUALLY, THE PRESIDENT OF BRAZIL IS EXPECTED AS WELL.

THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN XI JINPING AND VLADIMIR PUTIN IS A CLEAR MESSAGE.

THEY HAVE PRESENTED THEMSELVES, TO AN EXTENT, AS ANTI-U.S., ANTI-WESTERN AXIS.

AND, THEY ARE CLEARLY LOOKING FOR SOME SPACE TO JUMP INTO THE U.S.

ABANDONS GLOBAL LEADERSHIP.

DESCRIBE WHAT YOU THINK RUSSIA AND CHINA ARE UP TO.

>> WELL, IT IS DIFFICULT TO SAY.

IT IS A LITTLE BIT OF BACK AND FORTH.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER IN THE EARLY 1980s, THE RUSSIAN AND CHINESE ECONOMIES WERE THE SAME SIZE.

NOW CHINA IS OVER 10 TIMES BIGGER.

TO BE VERY FRANK, RUSSIA IS EXTREMELY DEPENDENT ON CHINA, WHETHER ECONOMICALLY, TECHNOLOGICALLY, OR MILITARILY.

OF COURSE, CHINA PLAYS THE GEOPOLITICAL GAME AND HAS ONE HAND ON ONE CARD IN THE POCKET OF VLADIMIR PUTIN.

AS FAR AS VICTORY DAY IS CONCERNED, I THINK IT IS VERY SIMPLE.

IT SHOULD BE SYMBOLIC FOR THE UKRAINIANS AND FOR US THAT PROMOTE WESTERN VALUES.

I THINK AT THIS STAGE, WE REALLY NEED TO MOVE FORWARD WITH TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE GET THIS CEASE-FIRE AND THEN START THE PEACE NEGOTIATIONS.

THERE IS A BIGGER TWO POLITICAL GAME BEING HELD HERE AND I THINK, OF COURSE, ANYTIME THERE IS A POWER VACUUM, SOMEONE WILL FILL IT AND CHINA IS TRYING TO DO THAT AT THE MOMENT.

I OF COURSE FOR THE AMERICANS TO STAY AS ENGAGED AS POSSIBLE.

>> RUSSIA AND CHINA AGREE ON THE NEED TO, "REMOVE ROOT CAUSES OF THE CONFLICT IN UKRAINE."

THAT HAS BEEN CODE FOR NATO ENLARGEMENT, ALL OF THOSE KINDS OF THINGS.

"NEW YORK TIMES" HAS REPORTED THAT XI JINPING HAS CAST THE TWO LEADERS AS DEFENDERS OF A FAIR AND JUST WORLD ORDER.

THEY ARE REALLY STAKE THEIR CLAIM HERE.

>> TO BE HONEST, IF THEY WANT TO REMOVE THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE CONFLICT, THEY HAVE TO REMOVE RUSSIA BECAUSE THERE WAS ONLY ONE AGGRESSOR IN THIS WAR AND THAT IS RUSSIA.

AND, VLADIMIR PUTIN.

THEY COULD STOP THE WAR BY A SNAP OF THEIR FINGERS BY WITHDRAWING.

THEY HAVE ILLEGALLY TRIED TO ANNEX ONLY THE CRIMEAN PENINSULA BUT PARTS OF UKRAINE AND NOW UP TO ABOUT 20% OF IT.

IF WE WANT A FAIR AND FREE WORLD ORDER, IT SHOULD BE BASED ON INTERNATIONAL RULES, NORMS, AND INSTITUTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN SET UP IN THE U.N. CHARTER AND THERE IS ONLY ONE COUNTRY WHICH IS LATENTLY, BLATANTLY BREAKING THE U.N. CHARTER RIGHT NOW AND IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF THIS WAR AND THAT IS RUSSIA.

SO, I WOULD SAY WHAT WE ARE HEARING FROM, AND RUSSIA IS VERY MUCH DOUBLE SPEAK.

>> YET, PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF AND HIS ADMINISTRATION SPOKE ABOUT POTENTIALLY, WELL ACTUALLY, THEY SUGGESTED THAT UKRAINE WOULD HAVE TO GIVE UP CRIMEA THAT THE CRIMEAN PENINSULA WOULD BE LEGITIMATELY RECOGNIZED AS RUSSIAN TERRITORY AND THEY ALSO SAID THAT THERE WOULD BE SOME DE FACTO OR DE JURE RECOGNITION OF THE AREAS THAT NOT ONLY WHAT RUSSIA HAS OCCUPIED BUT EVEN THOSE THAT IT DOESN'T.

>> I CAN ONLY SPEAK OBVIOUSLY FOR FINLAND AND I CAN GUARANTEE TO YOU THAT WE WILL NEVER RECOGNIZE THE CRIMEAN PENINSULA AS PART OF RUSSIA.

WE HAVE HAD A SIMILAR EXPERIENCE, OF COURSE, WITH THE SOVIET UNION TAKING ROUGHLY 10% OF OUR TERRITORY AFTER WORLD WAR II.

THAT CAME AFTER A PEACE SETTLEMENT AND RECOGNITION.

BUT, CRIMEA HAS BEEN ILLEGALLY RECOGNIZED AND THERE IS NO PEACE SETTLEMENT AT THIS STAGE YET.

THAT IS WHY I STRESS THE IMPORTANCE OF FIRST STOPPING THE KILLING, WHICH MEANS A CEASE-FIRE, UNCONDITIONAL CEASE- FIRE.

AFTER THAT, YOU START THE ACTUAL PEACE NEGOTIATIONS.

THAT IS WHAT THE UKRAINIANS WANT, THAT IS WHAT THE AMERICANS BUT, THAT IS WHAT THE EUROPEANS WANT BUT IT IS WHAT RUSSIA DOES NOT WANT AT THIS PARTICULAR STAGE.

AS PART OF THE PEACE AND CONFUSIONS, YOU START HAVING CONVERSATIONS ABOUT TERRITORY, BASICALLY ABOUT COMPENSATION AND ABOUT JUSTICE.

WE NEED TO STOP THE KILLING FIRST AND I THINK THIS IS WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION IS WORKING HARD ON.

>> THAT IS BASIC INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMACY AND MOVING FROM WAR TO CEASE-FIRE TO AN END STATE BUT IT SEEMS TO BE GOING IN ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS, INCLUDING THE IDEA OF SECURITY GUARANTEES.

WOULD YOU THINK, KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU ALL IN FINLAND, DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS ANY WAY TO GUARANTEE A PIECE IF THERE ARE NO SECURITY GUARANTEES FOR UKRAINE?

RUSSIA SAYS FORGET ABOUT IT, -- WE WOULD LIKE TO BE THE FOOT SOLDIERS BUT WE CAN'T EVEN BARELY MUSTER 25,000, THAT IS ACCORDING TO A "TIMES OF LONDON" REPORT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK EUROPE COULD DO?

>> I THINK THERE'S TWO STEPS IN THIS.

ONE IS MEMBERSHIP IN THE EUROPEAN UNION, WHICH, OF COURSE, IN AND OF ITSELF IS NOT A SECURITY GUARANTEE BUT IT IS, OF COURSE, NOT ONLY A VICTORY FOR UKRAINE BUT A LOSS FOR VLADIMIR PUTIN.

THAT, BY DEFINITION, MAKES UKRAINE EUROPEAN.

THE SECOND ONE IS NATO MEMBERSHIP.

IN THE MEANWHILE, WE NEED TO PROVIDE UKRAINE WITH SECURITY GUARANTEES BUT I THINK PEOPLE ARE SOMETIMES TALKING IN CIRCLES ABOUT THIS.

REMEMBER THAT THE MOST MODERN AND LARGEST ARMY THAT WE HAVE IN EUROPE RIGHT NOW IS UKRAINE.

IT HAS OVER 800,000 SOLDIERS.

IT HAS A CAPACITY WHICH NOT MANY EUROPEAN STATES HAVE.

WHAT WE CAN HELP IN TERMS OF SECURITY GUARANTEES ARE ABOUT AMMUNITION, PROVIDING INTELLIGENCE, PROVIDING DIFFERENT TYPES OF INSTRUMENTS SO IT IS NOT SO MUCH ABOUT FOOT SOLDIERS AS SUCH.

I THINK EUROPE CAN PROVIDE SECURITY GUARANTEES BUT I WOULD PREFER THERE TO BE AN AMERICAN BACKSTOP AND I HOPE THAT IS WHAT WE COME OUT WITH AT THE END OF THE DAY.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF THE MINERALS AGREEMENT, WHICH IS NOW BEING SIGNED, SEALED, AND DELIVERED.

>> I THINK IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

IT IS ONE OF THE TIPPING POINTS I THINK ALSO TO THE AMERICAN APPROACH BECAUSE NOW THE UNITED STATES HAS A CLEAR STAKE IN UKRAINE AND THAT WILL, OF COURSE, MAKE THEM EVEN MORE COMMITTED FROM WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN BEFORE.

AND, I THINK PEOPLE LIKE SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM AND SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT HAVE BEEN WORKING VERY HARD ON GETTING THIS DEAL.

NOW THAT WE HAVE IT, I THINK THE AMERICAN ATTITUDE AND APPROACH WILL CHANGE AND I HOPE THE RUSSIANS UNDERSTAND THIS AS WELL.

I THINK IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT TO GET THE MINERALS DEAL SIGNED AND EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, OF COURSE, THAT THE UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT HAS RATIFIED IT.

THIS COULD BE A GAME CHANGER IN THE AMERICANS PUSHING FOR A CEASE-FIRE AND PEACE NEGOTIATIONS.

>> I UNDERSTAND YOU WORLD LEADERS HAVE TO TOE A DELICATE LINE.

YOU ARE KEEPING A LOT OF PRAISE ON THE UNITED STATES BUT YOUR PEOPLE ARE NOT SO THRILLED, THEY DON'T LIKE THIS BUSINESS OF BEING INSULTED BY THE U.S. EUROPEANS, WE UNDERSTAND, ARE MOVING AWAY FROM BUYING AMERICAN.

NOT ONLY THAT BUT YOU, STILL DESPITE YOUR GOLF, HAVE A 10% TARIFF FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO COPE WITH THAT?

>> I THINK THE ABC OF DIPLOMACY IS YOU WORK WITH THE WORLD THAT EXISTS, NOT WITH THE WORLD WHICH YOU WISH THAT WOULD EXIST.

THEN YOU TRY TO INFLUENCE THE THINGS THAT YOU CAN INFLUENCE.

REMEMBER, I COME FROM A RELATIVELY SMALL COUNTRY, ALBEIT WITH ONE OF THE LARGEST MILITARIES IN EUROPE, AND ONE OF THE LONGEST BORDERS WITH RUSSIA.

WE FEEL THAT THE WAY IN WHICH WE HAVE AN IMPACT IS THAT WE ARE RELEVANT.

WE ARE RELEVANT TO OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES, WE ARE RELEVANT TO THE UNITED STATES AND WE TRY TO AFFECT DIFFERENT WORLD EVENTS, EVEN THOUGH SOMETIMES I DON'T GO EXACTLY THE WAY IN WHICH YOU WANT IT.

WE ARE QUITE REALISTIC IN WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO IN DIPLOMACY.

>> VERY FINALLY, YOU PROBABLY SAW THE LATEST REPORT THAT FINLAND IS THE HAPPIEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, YOU AND YOUR SON IS AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE.

HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THAT, BEING THE SMALLEST, WITH THE LONGEST RUSSIAN BORDER AND ALL THE REST OF IT, AND WITH A 10% TARIFF?

>> I THINK WE ARE PRETTY DOWN TO EARTH.

WE HAVE A VERY CLOSE ATTACHMENT TO NATURE, WE HAVE A VERY CLOSE ATTACHMENT TO EQUALITY AND WE HAVE A VERY CLOSE ATTACHMENT TO EDUCATION.

THAT, I THINK, GIVES US QUITE A LOT OF HAPPINESS.

SOMETIMES WE HIDE IT QUITE WELL.

FOR ALL THOSE WHO ARE A LITTLE BIT SKEPTICAL, I URGE YOU TO VISIT FINLAND.

GO TO LAPLAND, GO TO THE LAKE DISTRICT, GO TO THE ARCHIPELAGO AND YOU WILL SEE WHAT HAPPINESS IS ABOUT.

>> THAT IS A TEMPTING INVITATION .

PRESIDENT , THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>>> WE TURN TO A GRIPPING NEW DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THE BRAVE WHISTLEBLOWERS STANDING UP TO VLADIMIR PUTIN AND HIS REGIME "ANTIDOTE" FOLLOWS JOURNALIST CHRISTO GROZEV, WHOSE INVESTIGATIVE WORK HAS EXPOSED RUSSIAN SPY RINGS AND MURDERERS.

IT IS A CHILLING WATCH, WHERE WE SEE CHRISTO GROZEV WORKING UNDER HIGH PRESSURE, FACING THREATS TO HIS OWN LIFE AND FORCED SEPARATION FROM HIS FAMILY.

HERE IS A MOMENT WHERE HE DESCRIBES BEING HUNTED.

>> THERE WERE A PAIR OF THEM, WANTED BY RUSSIA.

I AM ON A FEDERAL SEARCH WARRANT LIST WITH NO EXPLANATION WHAT FOR, WHAT THE CHARGES ARE, AND THE ONLY HINT OF CLUE TO IT IS COMING FROM RUSSIAN STATE MEDIA OUTLET THAT SAYS ACCORDING TO INFORMATION WE HAVE FROM A SOURCE AND THE POLICE, CHRISTO GROZEV IS CHARGED WITH SLANDER OF THE RUSSIAN ARMY.

♪ >> WHEN I RETURNED TO MY HOME IN VIENNA, I WAS CONFRONTED HIM EASILY WITH THE LOCAL POLICE SAYING, NO, LIFE IS NOT GOING TO BE LIKE IT WAS BEFORE.

SO, A LOT OF THINGS WILL HAVE TO CHANGE.

I MAY HAVE TO CHANGE THE PLACE OF LIFE FOR MY FAMILY BECAUSE LOCAL POLICE IS TELLING ME THERE IS NOT AN EASY PLACE FOR YOU TO BE PROTECTED IN VIENNA.

THERE ARE TOO MANY RUSSIANS, TOO MANY POTENTIAL SPIES HERE THAT WE ARE NOT AWARE OF.

>> IRONICALLY, TEXTING MY WORK, I UNDERSTAND BETTER THAN ANYONE WHAT THIS MEANS.

>> CHRISTO GROZEV KNOWS ALL ABOUT DANGER BECAUSE HE MADE A FILM WITH PUTIN'S CHIEF CRITIC, THE LATE ALEXEI NAVALNY.

I SAT DOWN WITH CHRISTO GROZEV AND THE FILM'S AWARD-WINNING DIRECTOR, JAMES JONES, TO DISCUSS MAKING THIS GRIPPING THRILLER.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

"ANTIDOTE", THERE ARE SO MANY LEVELS AND LAYERS TO THE NAME OF THIS FILM.

THERE IS A LITTLE DEFINITION THAT WE SEE.

TELL ME WHAT IT IS AND WHY IT WAS IMPORTANT TO PUT IT IN.

>> THAT IS A QUESTION FOR JAMES.

>> YOU CAME UP WITH THE NAME.

>> IT IS A REFERENCE TO THE IDEA, THE FILM STARTED OFF ABOUT BEING ABOUT PUTIN'S POISON PROGRAM, EXPLAIN HOW THEY MADE THE POISONS, WITH A TARGETED, HOW THEY TRY TO ASSASSINATE PEOPLE.

THEN IT MORPHED AS TIME WENT BY INTO PUTTING A FILM ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO STAND UP TO PUTIN, WHAT YOU RISK, WHAT YOU SACRIFICE.

SO, "ANTIDOTE" IS A FULL NOT TO THE IDEA THAT THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO CAN COUNTERACT THE POISON INSIDE RUSSIA THAT IS VLADIMIR PUTIN.

>> CHRISTO GROZEV, YOU HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR A LONG TIME, FIRST WITH THE OPEN SOURCE INVESTIGATOR, BELLINGCAT, NOW YOU ARE WITH "INSIDER" AND YOU WERE WORKING VERY CLOSELY WITH ALEXEI NAVALNY AND YOU EXPOSED A LOT OF THESE SPIES USING POISON, ETC.

WHERE DID THIS START FOR YOU, ESPECIALLY HERE IN THE UK?

>> IT STARTED IN 2014, WHEN THE INITIAL INVASION BY RUSSIA OF UKRAINE TOOK PLACE AND I WAS, AT BEDTIME, A MEDIA MANAGER WITH A BACKGROUND IN JOURNALISM BUT NOT PRACTICING JOURNALISM FOR DECADES AND I FOCUSED ON TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF THIS WAR AND MAKE SENSE OF THAT DISINFORMATION THAT WAS COMING OUT FROM THE KREMLIN AT THAT TIME AND I STARTED A BLOG AT THAT PLAN.

ABOUT THE SAME TIME, THE EURASIAN AIRLINER WAS SHOT DOWN BY SOMEBODY AND I STARTED TO LOOK INTO WHO DID THAT.

AT THE SAME TIME, WE MERGED FORCES WITH BELLINGCAT AND STARTED WORKING TOGETHER.

MH-17 WAS THE FIRST INVESTIGATION THAT CAUGHT MY ATTENTION.

OVER TIME, IT TOOK MORE AND MORE OF MY TIME AND THAT BECAME A FULL-TIME PART OF MY JOB.

>> DID YOU EVER THINK, EVEN WHEN YOU ARE THIS CLOSE TO THE LATE ALEXEI NAVALNY THAT YOU WOULD BE IMPLICATED, THAT SOMEHOW IT WOULD COME BACK TO YOU?

THIS IS ABOUT YOU, THIS IS A THRILLER, THIS FILM, ABOUT HOW YOUR INVESTIGATIONS CAME BACK ESSENTIALLY TO TARGET YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.

>> YOU HAVE SEEN THE FILM AND YOU KNOW HOW ALEXEI NAVALNY SAYS A LOT OF TRUTHS THAT WE DON'T TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY UNTIL THEY BECOME REALITY.

HE WAS JOKINGLY SAYING THAT HE IS GOING TO BE KILLED ABOUT HIMSELF.

AND HE WANTS.

WHEN WE WERE PARTING WAYS WHEN HE WAS FLYING BACK TO RUSSIA, HE TOLD ME, YOU ARE NOW TOP OF THE LIST FOR PUTIN TO KILL.

HE SAYS NO, I'M SERIOUS ABOUT THAT.

I STILL DIDN'T TRUST IT BECAUSE I HAD DONE A LOT OF OTHER INVESTIGATIONS BEFORE THAT.

IT SEEMS THAT THE ALEXEI NAVALNY INVESTIGATION, THE INVESTIGATION INTO THE POISONING IN 2020 WAS THE TRIGGER FOR PUTIN TO DECIDE BECAUSE IT WAS HUMILIATING FOR PUTIN BECAUSE WE MADE FUN OF HIS SECURITY SERVICE.

>> THAT BRINGS ME TO THE CLIP THAT YOU GUYS HAVE GIVEN US.

I WANT TO DESCRIBE IT BECAUSE THERE IS A POINT, AS I SAID, WE RECEIVED A THREAT TO U-TURN FROM ABSTRACT TO REAL THREATS.

THERE ARE MESSAGES BETWEEN THE SPIES WHO ARE ORDERED TO FOLLOW YOU ACROSS EUROPE AND THE RINGLEADER WRITES, "PERSONALLY, I FIND CHRISTO GROZEV NOT TO BE AVAILABLE TARGET BUT APPARENTLY PUTIN SERIOUSLY HATES HIM."

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> TWO REASONS.

ONE IS WE EMBARRASSED HIM THROUGH THE INVESTIGATION.

IN THAT INVESTIGATION, WE CAJOLED ONE OF HIS HENCHMEN, ONE OF THE POISONERS OF ALEXEI NAVALNY TO TALK TO ALEXEI NAVALNY AND TO CONFESS TO EVERYTHING AND THAT CONTRADICTED PUTIN ON STATEMENTS THAT THIS WAS NOT THE REAL THING, THE POISONING.

SECOND, THAT INVESTIGATION PLACED ME ON THE RUSSIAN DOMESTIC POLITICAL SCENE.

I HAD TO EXPLAIN TO RUSSIAN AUDIENCES ON FREE MEDIA IN RUSSIA WHAT REALLY HAD HAPPENED, HOW PUTIN HAD COME AFTER TENS OF OPPOSITION LEADERS TRYING TO POISON THEM AND A LOT OF PEOPLE STARTED BELIEVING ME.

THAT SEEMED TO BE A THREAT TO PUTIN.

>> THE SCENE IS WHEN YOU FIRST READ THESE MESSAGES FROM THE OPERATIVES ESSENTIALLY BRAINSTORMING YOUR ABDUCTION.

YOU CAN SEE REFERENCE, I'M JUST GOING TO SAY THIS, REFERENCED A FUGITIVE WHEN WE DO AND HE IS WANTED BY INTERPOL.

>> HE WRITES, "IF WE WOULD FIND SOMEONE WE COULD CONTRACT FOR A SUICIDE ATTACK ON HIM, THAT WOULD BE BEST.

CUTS OFF HIS HEAD IN THE STREET AND BLOWS UP HIMSELF."

>> JESUS.

>> IS IS BEYOND, YOU HAD HEADLINES BUT IS THIS -- >> THAT IS WAY BEYOND.

THEY NEVER TOLD ME WHAT THE PLANS WERE, THEY NEVER TOLD ME THAT THEY WENT TO MY DESK, OTHER THAN THE PHOTO THEY SHOWED BUT THEY SEEM TO HAVE, AND THE CONCEPT OF AN AMBUSH, LET ALONE DECAPITATION, NOBODY TOLD ME THAT BEFORE.

IS CLEARLY DISTRESSING TO READ IT.

THE SECOND OF NOVEMBER, "WE ARE TWO PEOPLE IN VIENNA ON A CONSTANT BASIS. "

THE SUGGESTION IS TO WAIT FOR CHRISTO GROZEV TO FALL ASLEEP, THEN THEY RELEASE THE GAS INSIDE THE APARTMENT.

>> JESUS.

>> JAN MARSALEK WRITES, "THAT WOULD BE GLORIOUS."

THEN, HE WRITES, "EVERYTHING WHILE HE IS DEAD SLEEPING."

>> THAT IS YOUR HOME IN VIENNA.

>> WITH MY FAMILY AND MY KIDS.

>> YOU ARE THE CHRISTO GROZEV IN QUESTION.

YOU ARE CLEARLY ANGUISHED.

DESCRIBE HOW YOU FELT WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THAT, THOSE MESSAGES.

>> WHENEVER THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT WHAT THEY PLAN TO DO TO ME, IT IS KIND OF AN OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCE.

YOU READ IT AS SOMEBODY'S FANTASY.

THE MOMENT SOMETHING COMES UP IN THE CHAT THAT RELATES TO MY FAMILY, THEN IT BECOMES REALLY, REALLY PERSONAL.

THEN I REALLY BEGIN WORRYING ABOUT THE FUTURE AS WELL, NOT JUST ABOUT THE PAST BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE ARE DETAINED AND ARRESTED AND JAILED AND NOW THEY WILL GET CONVICTED, NEXT WEEK, SENTENCED.

>> THEY WERE CONVICTED.

>> SENTENCED.

BUT, A NEW GROUP WILL EMERGE.

EVERY TIME GAS IN MY DEPARTMENT, BREAKING INTO MY APARTMENT, WHEN I LIVED IN VIENNA WITH MY FAMILY, THAT IS WHEN IT COMES CLOSE TO HOME, LITERALLY.

>> JAMES, YOU TAKE PART IN THAT SCENE AS WELL, YOU ARE VERY PEASANT.

HOW DOES THIS FILM AND THE STORY COMPARE WITH SOME OF THE OTHER EXCRUCIATING STORIES YOU'VE DONE?

WHAT ABOUT THIS STANDS OUT?

>> I HAVE NEVER WORKED ON A FILM LIKE THIS AND PROBABLY NEVER WILL AGAIN.

TO BE IN NEW YORK WHEN HE GOT A CALL SAYING YOU CAN'T RETURN TO EUROPE BECAUSE THERE IS A KILL SQUAD WAITING FOR YOU, AS HE SAID, IT FELT SURREAL.

IT FELT LIKE WE WERE LIVING IN A MOVIE, A SPY MOVIE.

TO SPEND TIME WITH CHRISTO, THERE IS THIS INCREDIBLY OUTLANDISH PLOT THAT TOOK MORE AND MORE CHEAP IN REALITY AND THE IDEA THAT JAN MARSALEK, THIS KIND OF BOND VILLAIN FUGITIVE ASSESSMENT FOSTER FROM GERMANY WAS PLOTTING IT ALL FROM MOSCOW AT THE BEHEST OF VLADIMIR PUTIN, IT IS TOO RICH AND INSANE BUT I WAS WITNESSING CHRISTO LIFT.

AND HAVE HIS WHOLE LIFE UPROOTED.

I'VE DONE FILMS.

LAST TIME I SPOKE TO YOU WAS ABOUT A NORTH KOREA FOR MIKE DUNN AND SAUDI ARABIA.

>> YOU HAVE DONE GAZA.

>> ALL SORTS OF STORIES.

I THINK WITH THIS, WHAT WAS EXTRAORDINARY WAS TO WITNESS THE HUMAN STORY, THE OTHER SIDE OF VLADIMIR PUTIN'S OPPRESSIVE REGIME, WHICH IS THE BRAVERY OF CHRISTO, THE BRAVERY OF VADIM KRASIKOV AND HIS , VLADIMIR KARA-MURZA AND HIS WIFE EVGENIA, THE BRAVERY.

>> I UNDERSTAND THE DANGER TO CHRISTO BECAUSE HE IS HEAVILY INDICATED AND VLADIMIR PUTIN ALLEGEDLY HATES YOU.

FOR YOU AS THE FILMMAKER, THE ASSOCIATED DANGER AND FEAR OF WORKING WITH CHRISTO, BEATEN WITH CHRISTO WHILE HE WAS UNDER THIS THREAT, WHAT WAS THAT LIKE FOR YOU AND THE TEAM?

>> FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, WE KNEW WE HAD TO BE ULTRA- CAUTIOUS.

WE WERE DEALING WITH PEOPLE FOR WHOM THE STAKES COULDN'T BE HIGHER.

EVEN THE WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTING HIS IDENTITY, ALL OF THESE THINGS MEANT WE TOOK SERIOUS PRECAUTIONS, ENCRYPTED APPS, CODEWORDS, NOT TELLING FRIENDS AND FAMILY WHAT WE WERE DOING.

THEN, WE KIND OF THOUGHT WE WERE BEING A BIT SILLY.

WE THOUGHT THIS WAS OVER-THE- TOP, NO ONE CARES WHAT WE WERE DOING.

THEN, THEY ARRESTED SIX SPIES IN LONDON WHERE WE LIVE AND WORK AND THE SPIES WERE FRIGHTENING BUT ALSO DUMB AND THE POSTED GOOGLE REVIEWS OF EVERY HOTEL THEY STAYED IN WHEN THEY WERE TRACKING CHRISTO ACROSS VIENNA, COMPLAINING ABOUT THE LACK OF FRESH TOWELS >> WHAT NATIONALITY WERE THEY?

BULGARIAN.

>> THEY WERE ABLE TO TRAVEL FREELY.

THEY SAT NEXT TO CHRISTO ON PLANS, FILMING HIM.

THEY KNEW HE WAS COMING TO LONDON TO MEET WITH ME FOR THE FIRST TIME BEFORE I DID BECAUSE THEY HAD A MOLE WITHIN THE FLIGHT TRACKING SYSTEM AND ONE DETAIL THAT I NOTICED WHEN WE DISCOVERED THE GOOGLE REVIEWS WAS TWO DAYS BEFORE ONE OF THEM WAS ARRESTED, SHE POSTED A REVIEW OF A BEAUTY SALON TWO MINUTES FROM MY HOUSE AND THAT WAS A MOMENT, A FRACTION OF WHAT CHRISTO HAS GONE THROUGH BUT A MOMENT OF THIS IS QUITE REAL AND QUITE CLOSE TO HOME.

I'M SURE IT WAS A COINCIDENCE BUT FOR ALL OF US, ALL OF OUR WORST FEARS ABOUT WHAT THE RUSSIAN REGIME COULD BE CAPABLE OF, THIS KIND OF CAME TRUE.

>> OBVIOUSLY IN A FOLLOW-UP TO THAT, WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR FAMILY, THEN YOU START TO GET REALLY HYPERSENSITIVE AND WORRIED, AS YOU SHOULD BE.

WE DON'T MEET YOUR FATHER BUT YOU REFER TO HIM A LOT.

TELL ME THE STORY OF WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR FATHER.

>> HE JUST DIED ONE DAY WHILE I WAS AWAY, UNABLE TO BE THERE FOR HIM.

WHAT REALLY BOTHERED ME WAS THAT HE DIED TWO WEEKS AFTER I FOUND OUT THAT THERE WAS THIS PLOT AGAINST ME.

I STAYED IN NEW YORK AND I COULDN'T GO BACK TO AUSTRIA WHERE HE LIVED.

>> BECAUSE YOU WERE TOLD NOT TO COME BACK FOR SAFETY REASONS.

>> I MADE THAT PUBLIC.

I WANTED TO PROTECT MY FAMILY SO I MADE IT PUBLIC THAT I AM NOT GOING BACK AND I THOUGHT I WAS PROTECTING MY FAMILY AND MY DAD SUDDENLY STOPPED TAKING PHONE CALLS.

HE LIVED ALONE IN VIENNA.

WHAT REALLY SHOCKED ME WAS LATER AFTER THE ARREST OF THESE SIX SPIES, WHEN THE POLICE SHOWED ME THE PHOTOGRAPH OF THEM IN FRONT OF MY FATHER'S APARTMENT WITH AN ARROW POINTING TO HIS TERRACE SAYING "THIS WAY IN," AND THAT IS WHEN I FROZE.

IT REOPENED THIS CHAPTER THINKING COULD THERE BE A POSSIBILITY THEY ORGANIZED FOR HIM TO DIE.

>> IS THERE ANY CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE OR WAS THE AUTOPSY CONCLUSIVE?

WHERE DO YOU LAND ON THIS?

>> I WAS NOT GIVEN THE FULL RESULTS OF THE CHEMICAL AUTOPSY THAT WAS DONE, THE CHEMICAL TEST.

>> WHY NOT?

>> APPARENTLY IT IS REGULAR PROCEDURE BECAUSE THE PROSECUTION DON'T WANT TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO KNOW ALL OF THE SUBSTANCES THAT THEY TEST FOR BUT I DO KNOW THAT ONLY VERY FEW LABORATORIES IN EUROPE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO DISCOVER POISONS, HIGH-GRADE INDUSTRIAL POISONS AND I KNOW AUSTRIA, WHERE THE AUTOPSY WEARS CONDUCTED, DOES NOT HAVE THAT ABILITY SO I'M AFRAID I WILL NEVER KNOW.

>> I THINK YOU SAID GRIEF HAS TO BE PARKED FOR THE MOMENT.

>> IT IS AND, AGAIN -- >> AND GUILT, TO AN EXTENT.

IS THERE.

WHATEVER THE REASON WAS, EVEN IF HE DIED JUST BECAUSE HE GOT SICK AND NOBODY WAS THERE TO HELP HIM, I WAS NOT THERE TO HELP HIM.

THAT IS STILL MY GUILT, MY FAULT BECAUSE I ENGAGED IN ACTIVITY THAT MADE ME A TARGET AND I HAD TO STAY AWAY FEARED.

>> JAMES, IT IS CASTING A SUSPICIOUS LIGHT.

HAVE YOU HAD ANY RESPONSE FROM THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT?

HAVE YOU TRIED TO GET ANY RESPONSE, EVEN FROM THE AMBASSADOR HERE?

>> NO, I THINK WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THAT THEY DID PROSECUTE THESE SPIES.

THEY WERE ARRESTED TWO OR THREE DAYS AFTER CHRISTO'S FATHER PASSED AWAY .

AND, HIS DEATH WASN'T PART OF THE INVESTIGATION BUT IT WILL BE INTERESTING ONCE THE SENTENCING HAPPENS WHETHER THAT INVESTIGATION IS PICKED UP.

>> WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SEE AS THE SENTENCE, WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS, ARE THEY BEING CONVICTED OF -- >> ESPIONAGE.

>> ESPIONAGE, RIGHT.

>> THAT IS A HIGHER GRADE OF CLAIM THAN EVEN ATTENDED MURDER, ACCORDING TO BRITISH LAW.

THE TOP SENTENCING LIMIT AT THIS POINT, BECAUSE THEY WILL BE TRIED UNDER A PREVIOUS VERSION OF THE LAW, IS 16 TO 17 YEARS AND I THINK THE RINGLEADERS WILL GET SOMETHING VERY CLOSE TO THAT BECAUSE OF THE MESSAGES THAT YOU JUST HEARD.

>> IS INCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE.

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT A GROUP OF THESE SPIES THAT FOLLOWED YOU, APPARENTLY THEY HAD BEEN MAKING HEADLINES, WERE HERE IN THE UK FOR APPARENTLY ATTENDING A EXIT EVENT IN PARLIAMENT IN 2016, ACCORDING TO THE BBC, WHICH HAD HIS INVESTIGATION ON MONDAY.

NO SUGGESTION OF WRONGDOING BUT THIS IS WEIRD, ISN'T IT, THIS ACCESS TO THESE KIND OF PEOPLE, DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT?

>> I SAW THE REPORTING PERIOD COLLEAGUES FROM THE BBC CALLED ME ABOUT THAT, BEING SHOCKED AT THAT DISCOVERY.

WE KNOW THAT THE RINGLEADER, HE HAD BEEN MADE HIMSELF AVAILABLE TO RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE FOR YEARS BEFORE THE ACTUAL OPERATION OF THE STING AGAINST ME.

WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY HAD DONE BEFORE.

I THINK THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF A NEW TREND THAT WE SEE OVER THE LAST SIX OR SEVEN YEARS, WHICH IS OUTSOURCING OF INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS BY THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT AND, TO A DEGREE, BY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT TO PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS, WHO ARE FILLING IN THE GAPS WHERE RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE CAN NO LONGER BE PRESENT PHYSICALLY BECAUSE SO MANY DIPLOMATS WHO ARE SPIES WITH A DRAMATIC COVER HAVE BEEN KICKED OUT BY WESTERN COUNTRIES AND SO MANY SPIES CAN NO LONGER TRAVEL BECAUSE OF JOURNALIST DISCLOSURES, LIKE WE HAD DONE AND BELLINGCAT AND INSIGHT ARE CONDUCTED.

THEY CAN NO LONGER TRAVEL BUT RESORT TO PRIVATE CRIME GROUPS, SPIES FOR HIGHER LIKE THESE SIX AND THERE ARE MANY MORE LIKE THAT.

>> IT IS AMAZING, A BIG DENT THAT YOU HAVE PUT IN THIS.

YOU MENTIONED VLADIMIR KARA- MURZA.

YOU INTERVIEWED EVGENIA, TELL ME ABOUT HOW SHE IMPRESSED YOU.

>> SHE IS AN EXTRA ORDINARY WOMAN AND DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE FRONT AND CENTER OF THE WORLD'S ATTENTION.

AS SHE SAID, IT IS HARDER TO KILL SOMEONE WHEN THE ENTIRE WORLD IS WATCHING.

SHE DEDICATED HER LIFE, AT GREAT PERSONAL COST.

THEY HAVE THREE KIDS BACK IN THE STATES WHO ARE AT SCHOOL.

AND, THEIR DAD IS IN PRISON ALREADY.

FOR HER TO TRAVEL THE WORLD, GIVING THE SPEECHES, KEEPING HIS NAME IN THE HEADLINES AND WHEN THE FILM WAS CHRISTO APPROACHED EVGENIA, FLOATING THE IDEA OF A PRISONER SWAP, THAT SHE WOULD ADVOCATE FOR THAT.

SHE IS SECRETARY.

SHE IS SO MODEST AND SO DIGNIFIED AND SHE IS CHARISMATIC.

SHE COULD BE A KIND OF POLITICAL FIGURE HERSELF IN A WAY THAT IN OTHER COUNTRIES LIKE BELARUS THE POLITICIANS COME TO THE FOREFRONT.

EVGENIA COULD DO THAT.

I DON'T THINK SHE WILL BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T WANT IT ENOUGH BUT SHE IS EXTRA ORDINARY AND HER HUSBAND, VLADIMIR KARA-MURZA, IS ONE OF THE VERY RARE PRINCIPLED, DECENT PEOPLE.

>> IT IS AN EXTRA ORDINARY AND ONGOING STORY.

OBVIOUSLY, VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS BEEN IN 25 YEARS AND COULD LAST A LOT LONGER.

CHRISTO, JAMES, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

A VERY POWERFUL FILM, VERY POWERFUL STORY AND THE LIFE YOU ARE HAVING TO LIVE IS DIFFICULT.

ARE YOU FREE TO GO BACK HOME YET?

>> NOT REALLY.

EVERY TIME I GO BACK HOME, I HAVE TO BE ACCOMPANIED BY A PLATOON OF POLICE PROTECTION, WHICH IS NOT REALLY GOING BACK HOME.

>> GOOD LUCK.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> USUALLY ONCE AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT IS SWORN IN, THEY PARK THEIR PERSONAL BUSINESS INTEREST TO SERVE THEIR COUNTRY, BUT APPARENTLY NOT PRESIDENT TRUMP.

INSTEAD OF DIVESTING INTO BLIND TRUSTS AND THE LIKE, HAS DOUBLED DOWN.

HIS SONS LAUNCHED A CRYPTO FIRM CALLED WORLD LIBERTY FINANCIAL.

AND, HE HAS BEEN SELLING A PERSONAL MEME COIN.

SENATE DEMOCRATIC USED TRUMP AND HIS FAMILY PROFITING FROM THE PRESIDENCY AND NOW THEY WANT CHANGES TO CRYPTOCURRENCY LEGISLATION.

THE NEW YORK TIMES TECH REPORTER, DAVID YAFFE-BELLANY, TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT HIS LATEST INVESTIGATION INTO THE TRUMP FAMILY AND THEIR NEWEST BUSINESS VENTURE.

>> TRAIN FOR, THANKS.

DAVID YAFFE-BELLANY, TO COVER CRYPTOCURRENCY FOR "ANY TIMES."

MOST AMERICANS, LET'S SET THE TABLE, IF WE CAN, OR MAYBE A LITTLE FAMILIAR WITH CRYPTOCURRENCY, MAYBE THEY SAW A SUPER BOWL AD.

BEFORE WE HAVE AN IN-DEPTH CONVERSATION ABOUT THE POSSIBLE CONFLICTS OF INTEREST AND HOW IMPORTANT THIS IS IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS, JUST EXPLAIN WHAT CRYPTOCURRENCY IS FOR PEOPLE.

>> AT THE MOST BASIC LEVEL, THE CURRENCY IS A FORM OF DIGITAL MONEY THAT CAN BE TRANSFERRED FROM PERSON TO PERSON WITHOUT ANY SORT OF INTERMEDIARY IN BETWEEN, LIKE A BANK.

OBVIOUSLY, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TRANSFER MONEY ELECTRONICALLY FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

WE DO IT EVERY DAY WITH OUR CREDIT CARDS AND BANK ACCOUNTS.

THE IDEA OF CRYPTO IS THAT YOU CAN ELIMINATING THE MIDDLEMAN AND IT IS PERSON TO PERSON.

>> ONE OF THE FIRST EXECUTIVE ORDERS THE PRESIDENT SIGNED WHEN HE CAME BACK INTO OFFICE WAS "THE DIGITAL ASSET INDUSTRY PLAYS A CRUCIAL ROLE IN AN EFFICIENT AND ECONOMICAL ELEMENT IN THE UNITED STATES AS WELL AS INTERNATIONAL LEADERSHIP ."

HE IS AS PRO-CRYPTO AS ANY PRESIDENT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST.

WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT?

>> UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, THERE WAS A GOVERNMENTWIDE CRACKDOWN OF THE CRYPTO INDUSTRY.

THE SEC SUED HUGE NUMBERS OF CRYPTO COMPANIES.

OTHER REGULATORS IN WASHINGTON ADOPTED FAIRLY PUNITIVE POLICIES TOWARD CRYPTO IN ALL SORTS OF WAYS.

IN THE INDUSTRY WAS ON THE ROCKS AND IT WAS FACING WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A YEARSLONG COURT BATTLE TO EFFECTIVELY DETERMINE WHETHER THE INDUSTRY COULD CONTINUE TO EXIST IN THE UNITED STATES.

WITH ONE ELECTION, THAT WAS ALL WIPED AWAY.

WITH TRUMP IN POWER, CRYPTO IS ASCENDANT AGAIN AND IN THE PROCESS OF ACHIEVING LEGISLATION THAT WOULD PRETTY MUCH CEMENTED THAT STATUS FOR THE INDUSTRY.

>> WE DON'T HAVE TO GO THAT FAR BACK INTO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S HISTORY TO FIND OUT THAT MUCH OF A FAN OF CRYPTOCURRENCIES, AT LEAST IN HIS FIRST ADMINISTRATION.

WHAT CHANGED?

>> TRUMP IS A REAL ESTATE GUY, OBVIOUSLY.

IN MANY WAYS, HE IS NOT AN OBVIOUS FIT FOR THE WORLD OF CRYPTO.

HE HAS COME OUT NUMEROUS TIMES TO SAY HE DOESN'T TRUST THE TECHNOLOGY, THAT HE THINKS IT IS USED BY SCAMMERS AND DRUG DEALERS.

THINGS STARTED TO CHANGE OVER THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF AND THERE ARE SERIOUS IMPORTANT PHENOMENON THAT ALL HAPPENED IN PARALLEL.

ONE WAS THAT THE CRYPTO INDUSTRY STARTED DONATING A HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY TO THE 2024 ELECTION CAMPAIGN.

SOME OF THAT MONEY WENT TO TRUMP OR TRUMP ALIGNED SUPER PACs BUT MOST OF IT WENT TO CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATES.

IT WAS A REAL DEMONSTRATION OF THE FINANCIAL POWER OF THE INDUSTRY.

THAT WAS ONE THING.

AT THE SAME TIME THAT WAS HAPPENING, TRUMP'S OLDER SONS, ERIC AND DON JUNIOR BECAME INCREASINGLY DISILLUSIONED WITH THE TRADITIONAL FINANCIAL SYSTEM.

WAS LARGELY BECAUSE POST- JANUARY 6th, THEY FELT LIKE THEY HAD BEEN BLOCKED OUT BY TRADITIONAL BANKS.

SUDDENLY, THEY HEARD, THEY STARTED THIS FINANCIAL ALIGNMENT WITH THE CRYPTO WORLD AND STARTED PURSUING CRYPTO VENTURES THEMSELVES.

THOSE TWO THINGS HAPPENING IN PARALLEL SHAPED TRUMP'S ADOPTION OF CRYPTO.

>> THERE ARE MULTIPLE STORYLINES THAT YOU HAVE BEEN REPORTING ON IN THE PAST FEW MONTHS.

ONE, JUST TO CLARIFY FOR OUR AUDIENCE, THERE IS THE IDEA OF A MEME COIN.

THERE IS THE IDEA OF A STABLE COIN.

AND, THERE IS WORLD LIBERTY FINANCIAL.

BREAK THESE APART FOR ME.

>> IT IS COMPLICATED AND THERE ARE A LOT OF MOVING PIECES BUT I WILL TRY TO BREAK IT DOWN AS BEST I CAN.

THE FIRST, AND ARGUABLY MOST IMPORTANT TRUMP CRYPTO VENTURE IS A COMPANY CALLED WORLD LIBERTY FINANCIAL.

THIS IS RUN BY TRUMP'S CELL SONS, BY SOME OTHER FAMILY FRIENDS AND A COUPLE OF CRYPTO ENTREPRENEURS RECRUITED TO WORK ON IT.

WORLD LIBERTY FINANCIAL MARKETED ITSELF AS A NEWFANGLED BANK FOR CRYPTOCURRENCIES, A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE CAN GO TO BORROW AND LEND MONEY USING CRYPTO.

THAT IS THE OVERARCHING IDEA OF THE COMPANY.

WHAT THE COMPANY HAS DONE SO FAR IS REALLY JUST ISSUED TWO NEW DIGITAL CURRENCIES THAT CAN BE SOLD TO THE PUBLIC.

ONE IS A CRYPTOCURRENCY CALLED WLFI, AND IT IS A CRYPTOCURRENCY ASSOCIATED WITH THIS PLATFORM AND THE HAVE SPENT MONTHS SELLING IT TO THE PUBLIC.

THEY HAVE RAISED $550 MILLION SELLING THAT COIN TO THE PUBLIC.

THAT IS THE FIRST TRUMP CRYPTOCURRENCY, .

THE SECOND TRUMP CRYPTOCURRENCY, WHICH IS ALSO ISSUED BY THE WORLD LIBERTY FINANCIAL, IS A STABLE COIN.

THAT IS THE TYPE OF CRYPTO THAT, UNLIKE BITCOIN, WHICH IS CONSTANTLY GOING UP AND DOWN, MAINTAINS A CONSTANT VALUE OF $1.00.

IT IS USEFUL BECAUSE IF YOU WORK IN CRYPTO AND YOU WANT TO CONDUCT A NORMAL BUSINESS TRANSACTION, IT IS HELPFUL TO HAVE A FORM OF CURRENCY THAT ISN'T CONSTANTLY FLUCTUATING.

WORLD LIBERTY HAS ALSO ISSUED THIS TRUMP STABLE COIN, WHICH IS CALLED USD1.

YOU HAVE WLFI, USD1, AND THE THIRD TRUMP CRYPTOCURRENCY AND THE ONE THAT HAS GOTTEN THE MOST ATTENTION IS THE SO- CALLED MEME COIN, WHICH IS TOTALLY SEPARATE FROM WORLD LIBERTY, DIFFERENT PEOPLE WORKING ON THAT PROJECT, AND THAT IS BASICALLY A CRYPTOCURRENCY BASED ON A JOKE OR AN ONLINE MASCOT.

IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY VALUE OR FUNCTION BEYOND SPECULATION.

TRUMP STARTED MARKETING IT TO THE PUBLIC A COUPLE DAYS BEFORE HIS INAUGURATION.

IT SHOT UP IN PRICE, WHICH MADE HIS FAMILY AND BUSINESS PARTNERS HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY IN TRANSACTION FEES, AND THEN IT IMMEDIATELY CRASHED, WHICH TENDS TO HAPPEN WITH A MEME COIN.

YOU HAVE THE TRUMP MEME COIN, THE WLFI, AND THE USD1 STABLE COIN.

THOSE ARE THE THREE TRUMP CRYPTOCURRENCIES.

>> HOW DO THESE CURRENCIES CONNECT TO THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF?

BECAUSE, THERE IS USUALLY AT LEAST ONE SORT OF ARM'S-LENGTH DISTANCE THAT PASSED RESIDENTS HAVE TAKEN, THEY'VE TAKEN GREAT STEPS TO SAY I'M PUTTING EVERYTHING IN A BLIND TRUST, I CAN'T MAKE INVESTMENTS, NONE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE STOCK MARKET OR ANY MARKET AFFECTS MY DECISIONS.

ARE THESE CRYPTO COINS ANY DIFFERENT?

DO THEY HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE PRESIDENT?

>> THEY DO.

THEY DIRECTLY FINANCIALLY BENEFIT THE PRESIDENT AND HIS FAMILY AND YOU CAN SEE THAT IN THE WAY THE UNDERLYING CORPORATIONS BACKING THESE DIFFERENT CRYPTOCURRENCIES ARE STRUCTURED.

ONE POINT THAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THIS IS, PURCHASING THESE CURRENCIES AND ENRICH THE PRESIDENT AND HIS FAMILY IS FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT FROM MAKING A CAMPAIGN DONATION.

WHEN YOU MAKE A CAMPAIGN DONATION, YOU ARE SUPPORTING A POLITICAL EFFORT AND THAT MONEY IS RESTRICTED AND HAS TO BE SPENT ON THE POLITICAL EFFORT.

THE MONEY THAT TRUMP AND HIS FAMILY ARE GENERATING FOR THE CRYPTO VENTURES IS MONEY THEY SIMPLY HAVE TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT WITH.

THAT SORT OF AGGRESSIVE KIND OF PERSONAL FUNDRAISING BUSINESS ACTIVITY WHILE PRESIDENT HAS NO PRECEDENT IN MODERN U.S. HISTORY.

>> WE SHOULD NOTE THAT A SPOKESMAN FOR WORLD LIBERTY AS SAID, "IT WOULD BE FALSE, ABSURD, AND DANGEROUS TO SUGGEST INVESTMENT OR PARTNERSHIPS WITH WORLD LIBERTY FINANCIAL WERE CONDUCTED AS SOME SORT OF POLITICAL QUID PRO QUO.

NEVER HAS AN INVESTOR OR PARTNER REQUESTED ANY POLITICAL FAVORITISM, NOR WOULD WE EVER ENTERTAIN SUCH A POSSIBILITY."

DO WE KNOW WHO INVESTS IN THESE COINS?

>> SO, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS COMPLICATED ABOUT CRYPTO.

ALL DIGITAL CURRENCY TRANSACTIONS ARE RECORDED ON SOMETHING CALLED THE BLOCKCHAIN, WHICH IS A GIANT SPREADSHEET SHOWING EVERY TIME CRYPTO IS BOUGHT OR SOLD.

YOU CAN LOOK AND SEE WHO IS BUYING THE WLFI COIN, FOR INSTANCE.

THOSE PEOPLE ARE IDENTIFIED BY LONG STRINGS OF LETTERS AND NUMBERS.

SO, YOU DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE A NAME ATTACHED TO ANY OF THOSE ACCOUNTS.

MY COLLEAGUES AND I AT "THE NEW YORK TIMES" HAVE WORKED WITH BASICALLY A COMPANY THAT SPECIALIZES IN CRYPTO FORENSICS, WHO TRY TO ASSIGN NAMES AND IDENTITIES TO THESE ANONYMOUS WALLET ADDRESSES.

WE HAVE HAD SOME SUCCESS IN DOING THAT AND WE FOUND A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO BOUGHT THE WLFI IN PARTICULAR ARE PEOPLE BASED IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES WHO WOULD BE BARRED UNDER U.S. LAW FROM DONATING TO A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN OR AN INAUGURAL FUND FOR PRESIDENT.

OTHERS ARE PEOPLE WITH CRYPTO BUSINESSES WHO MIGHT HAVE SOME INTEREST IN POTENTIALLY CURRYING FAVOR WITH THE U.S. GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THEY ARE TRYING TO EXPAND THEIR BUSINESS IN THE U.S. OR ARE SEEKING SOME SORT OF FIGURATIVELY APPROVAL.

THE CONFLICTS OF INTEREST MOUNT UP THE MORE AND MORE YOU LOOK AT THE TYPE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE BUYING THESE COINS.

>> WHEN IT COMES TO FOREIGN POLICY, ARE THERE OTHER IMPLICATIONS?

THERE WAS RECENTLY A SITUATION WHERE THE UAE WITH THEIR SOVEREIGN FUND WAS DECIDING TO BACK ONE OF THESE VENTURES WITH $2 BILLION, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> AT A CONFERENCE IN DUBAI A FEW DAYS AGO ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO RUNS WORLD LIBERTY FINANCIAL, ZACH WITKOFF, WHO IS THE SON OF STEVE WITKOFF, THE WHITE HOUSE MIDDLE EAST ENVOY, GOT ONTO A STAGE WITH ERIC TRUMP AND ANNOUNCED THAT A VENTURE CAPITAL FUND, WHICH IS BACKED BY THE GOVERNMENT OF ABU DHABI, SO BACKED BY THE GOVERNMENT OF THIS AREA, IS GOING TO USE THAT USD1 STABLE COIN TO COMPLETE A $2 BILLION TRANSACTION.

EFFECTIVELY, THEY ARE HANDING THIS TRUMP BUSINESS $2 BILLION.

IN RETURN, THE TRUMP BUSINESS IS GIVING THEM THESE $2 BILLION IN STABLE COINS.

STABLE COIN MAINTAINS THE ONE- TO-ONE VALUE.

AND, IT IS A HUGE BOOST FOR THE TRUMP BUSINESS AND IT IS BEING PROVIDED MORE OR LESS DIRECTLY BY A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT.

>> WHAT OTHER KIND OF POLICY IMPLICATIONS ARE THERE?

YOU MENTIONED ZACH WITKOFF WAS IN PAKISTAN RECENTLY.

WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?

>> ZACH WITKOFF TAKING THE TRIP TO PAKISTAN WAS INCREDIBLE, YOU CAN SEE THE VIDEOS ONLINE.

IT HAD ALL THE TRAPPINGS OF A STATE VISIT.

HE HAS AN AMERICAN FLAG PIN ON HIS LAPEL.

HE AND HIS BUSINESS PARTNERS ARE PHOTOGRAPHED SITTING ACROSS FROM THE PRIME MINISTER.

THEY ARE MEETING WITH OTHER GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS.

THERE IS A POLICE ESCORT THROUGH THE STREETS, A DANCE PERFORMANCE, FIREWORKS.

IT IS THE SORT OF PAGEANTRY THAT IS USUALLY RESERVED FOR VISITING HEADS OF STATE BUT HERE HAS BEEN BESTOWED UPON THESE GUYS WHO ARE JUST IN BUSINESS WITH THE HEAD OF STATE.

>> IS THIS PROXIMITY TO POWER, SOMEBODY SAYING I'M GOING TO SUPPORT YOUR VENTURE BECAUSE YOU KNOW THE PRESIDENT OR YOUR DAD WORKS FOR THE PRESIDENT?

>> NONE OF THAT IS MADE EXPLICIT.

NONE OF THESE OFFICIALS IN PAKISTAN CAME OUT AND SAID I AM HANGING OUT WITH THESE GUYS BECAUSE THEY ARE CONNECTED TO THE PRESIDENT.

IT IS SORT OF AN OBVIOUS CONCLUSION TO DRAW.

NONE OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE DAY-TO-DAY OPERATIONS OF WORLD LIBERTY HAVE ANY SORT OF STRONG TRACK RECORD IN THE CRYPTO WORLD.

THE COMPANY ALSO HASN'T RELEASED ANY MEANINGFUL PRODUCTS SO FAR, IT HAS RELEASED THESE TWO COINS SO THE VALUE OF THE COMPANY AND THE REASON IT HAS SO MUCH NETWORKING POWER IS THE ASSOCIATION WITH THE U.S. PRESIDENT.

>> YOU HAVE REPORTED TO THE CRYPTO EXECUTIVE WITH PERHAPS THE MOST TO GAIN FROM HIS AFFILIATION WITH WEST LIBERTY IS JUSTIN SUN, A CHINESE BILLIONAIRE, WHO IS JUSTIN SUN?

>> IS AN IMPORTANT AND COLORFUL FIGURE IN THE CRYPTO WORLD.

HE HAS BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME.

HE IS ENORMOUSLY WEALTHY AND IS THE KEY FIGURE BEHIND TRON, WHICH IS A CRUCIAL CRYPTO PLATFORM.

PEOPLE MIGHT REMEMBER HIM FROM LAST YEAR, WHEN HE BOUGHT A $6.2 MILLION PIECE OF EXPERIMENTAL ARTWORK , WHICH WAS A BANANA DUCT TAPE TO A WALL.

HE GAINED A LOT OF CELEBRITY FROM THAT STUNT.

HE HAS ALSO BEEN IN THE CROSSHAIRS OF U.S. REGULARS.

JUSTIN SUN WAS PURSUED BY THE SEC IN 2023 FOR FRAUDULENTLY MANIPULATING THE PRICE OF THE TRON CRYPTOCURRENCY.

AFTER TRUMP WON THE ELECTION, HE SPENT $75 MILLION ON THAT WORLD LIBERTY FINANCIAL CRYPTO, WLFI, AND BECAME ONE OF THE TOP INVESTORS IN IT .

NOT LONG AFTER TRUMP WAS INAUGURATED, THE SEC CASE AGAINST HIM WAS PUT ON ICE.

CRITICS OF THAT TRANSACTION HAVE POINTED TO THE OBVIOUS INCENTIVE JUSTIN SUN WOULD HAVE TO CURRY FAVOR WITH THE ADMINISTRATION.

JUSTIN SUN SET HIS PURCHASE OF THE COINS DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE SEC CASE BUT THE ALIGNMENT OF INTERESTS CREATES BAD OPTICS FOR THE ADMINISTRATION.

>> WE SHOULD NOTE THAT JUSTIN SUN DENIES THE SEC CHARGES AND IN A TEXT MESSAGE TO THE TWINS LAST YEAR, HE SAID HIS WORLD LIBERTY INVESTMENT WAS "SIMPLY A VOTE OF CONFIDENCE IN THE TRUMP FAMILY'S EXCELLENT PROJECT."

I HAVE READ PEOPLE SAYING THIS IS SOUR GRAPES FROM THE PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT OF POWER BECAUSE CORRUPTION PEDDLING, INFLUENCE PEDDLING HAS BEEN PART OF POLITICS SINCE POLITICS EXISTED.

THERE IS HISTORICAL PRECEDENT WHERE MEMBERS OF THE FAMILY HAVE BEEN PERHAPS ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEIR PROXIMITY TO THE PRESIDENT.

IS THERE SOMETHING DIFFERENT ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW?

>> I THINK THERE IS A MUCH CLEARER RULE FOR THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF IN THESE VENTURES.

TRUMP, EVEN NOW, EVEN IN THE LAST FEW DAYS, IS ACTIVELY PROMOTING THE MEME COIN ON HIS THE SOCIAL MEDIA CHANNELS, FOR INSTANCE.

HE IS EXPECTED TO HAVE DINNER WITH THE TOP 220 HOLDERS OF THIS MEME COIN.

HE STARTED A COMPETITION.

IF YOU BUY MORE OF THE MEME COIN, YOU CAN GET ON THE LIST TO HAVE DINNER WITH HIM.

IT MAKES EXPLICIT THE CLEAR PREMISE OF ALL OF THIS, WHICH IS YOU BY THE COIN AND YOU GET ACCESS TO THE PRESIDENT.

THAT IS WHAT IS UNUSUAL ABOUT THIS.

>> THE PRESIDENT AND THE VICE PRESIDENT, AND THEY THE TWO EXCEPTIONS ON PEOPLE IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH CAN HAVE CONFLICTS OF INTEREST?

THE PRESIDENT HAS COME OUT AND SAID, THE LAW IS ON MY SIDE, I CAN'T HAVE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

>> THE PRESIDENT IS NOT SUBJECT TO CONFLICTS OF INTEREST RULES.

ON SOME LEVEL, WHAT HE'S DOING IS KOSHER.

BUT, IT IS ALSO OUT OF STEP WITH WHAT PRESIDENTS HAVE DONE HISTORICALLY AND IT CREATES ALL THESE SORTS OF ETHICAL CONCERNS.

OF COURSE, IF THERE WERE ACTUALLY AN INCIDENT OF A TRUE EXPLICIT QUID PRO QUO THAT COULD BE PROVEN, THAT WOULD NOT BE COVERED BY THIS ACCEPTION.

>> THE WHITE HOUSE HAS SAID THE PRESIDENT'S ASSETS ARE IN A TRUST MANAGED BY HIS CHILDREN, THEREFORE THERE ARE NO CONFLICTS OF INTEREST, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> IT IS A LITTLE BIT MISLEADING BECAUSE THAT TRUST IS STILL ULTIMATELY BENEFITS TRUMP HIMSELF.

ANY KIND OF FINANCIAL GAIN WILL ULTIMATELY SLOW TO HIM AND TO HIS FAMILY AS WELL.

THERE IS A CLEAR PERSONAL INCENTIVE FOR HIM TO BOOST THE HOLDINGS OF HIS FAMILY AND THEIR BUSINESS OPERATIONS.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK OUT AT THE CRYPTO LANDSCAPE OVERALL, DO PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THIS ADMINISTRATION AND THE ROLLBACK OF THESE REGULATIONS IS REALLY KIND OF THE NEW DAWNING THAT THEY NEEDED, THAT THE FIELD IS WIDE OPEN FOR THEM?

OR, IS THIS JUST ANOTHER CYCLE?

>> THERE'S A LOT OF OPTIMISM IN THE INDUSTRY.

I THINK THE CONCERN IS THAT TRUMP IS A FAMOUSLY FICKLE AND WHAT IF HE TWEETED TOMORROW, I DON'T LIKE CRYPTO TOMORROW.

STRANGER THINGS HAVE HAPPENED IN THE CAREER OF DONALD TRUMP.

THERE ARE BROADER ECONOMIC POLICIES HE IS PURSUING, TARIFFS MOST OBVIOUSLY THAT HURT CRYPTO INTERESTS.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE PRICE OF BITCOIN IS DOING PRETTY WELL.

IT IS UP CLOSE TO 100,000, IT IS A HEALTHY PRICE FOR IT TO BE AT.

WHAT THE INDUSTRY IS TRYING TO DO IS CAPITALIZE ON THIS MOMENT, WHICH IS A UNIQUE MOMENT IN THE HISTORY OF CRYPTO WHERE THE INDUSTRY HAS SO MUCH SUPPORT FROM THE RULING PARTY TO GET LEGISLATION PASSED THAT SIMMONS THOSE GAMES SO THAT IF TRUMP IS OUT OF OFFICE IN A FEW YEARS AND A DEMOCRAT WHO HATES CRYPTO TAKES OVER, THERE IS A LIMIT TO WHAT THAT PERSON CAN ACCOMPLISH BECAUSE LEGISLATION HAS BEEN PASSED THAT ENSHRINES THE ROLE OF CRYPTO IN THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM AND CREATES A REGULATORY FRAMEWORK FOR IT BUT THE INDUSTRY CONSIDERS HOPEFUL.

>> TECHNOLOGY REPORTER AT "THE NEW YORK TIMES" DAVID YAFFE- BELLANY, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> BUT IS IT ON OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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