>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO., HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP YOUR >> GOOD LUCK, SHOW US SOMETHING VERY SPECIAL.

>> THE UNITED STATES LIFT SANCTIONS AND COULD IT BE A NEW DAWN FOR THAT WAR-TORN COUNTRY?

NEXT UP, QATAR ON THE TOUR OF THE PERSIAN GULF.

WHAT HE IS HOPING FROM THREE OF THE THREE RICHEST COUNTRIES.

>>> THE FORMER ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER JOINS ME FOR A WIDE RANGE CONVERSATION.

>>> IN FACT, NOT JUST A FEAR.

>> GAZA ON THE BRINK FACING FAMINE AND ISRAELI BOMBS.

WHAT HOPE IS THERE FOR AN END TO THIS WAR?

I SPEAK TO PEOPLE BEHIND, STANDING TOGETHER, A JEWISH AND ARAB MOVEMENT >>> THEM NOT MADE THEIR PEACE WITH SURROUNDING STATES.

>> ONE OF THE VOICES ON PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

HE BELIEVES THAT NETANYAHU IS NOT AN ALLY OF THE UNITED STATES AND HE EXPLAINS TO MICHEL MARTIN.

>>> AMANPOUR & CO. IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, CANDACE KING WHEEL, AND SIMON B --PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND NIKKI STRAUSS.

THE FILAMENT M. FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE SECOND STOP ON HIS TOUR OF GULF NATIONS WHICH HAPPENED TO BE THREE OF THE RICHEST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.

MAKING DEALS APPEARS TO BE THE MAIN ORDER OF BUSINESS.

DURING HIS STOP IN SAUDI ARABIA, THE PRESIDENT MET THE NEW SAUDI ARABIAN PRESIDENT WHO SAYS HE IS LIFTING NEW SANCTIONS ON DAMASCUS DURING THE BRUTAL CIVIL WAR.

WE ARE FOLLOWING THE PRESENT ON THIS MIDDLE EAST TOUR.

JOINING US NOW FROM DELHI.

JEFF, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WHAT WAS THE BIGGEST THING, DO YOU THINK?

THE DIPLOMATIC OUTREACH TO SYRIA OR THE BUSINESS DEALS?

>> THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THIS TRIP WAS DESIGNED TO BE A DEALMAKING TRIP MORE THAN A DIPLOMATIC MISSION.

ALONG THE WAY, A LITTLE BIT OF BOTH HAPPENED.

I DO BELIEVE ASIDE FROM THESE BILLION-DOLLAR DEALS OF BUYING NEW PLANS FROM BOEING, ET CETERA, IT WILL BE THE CHANGE IN U.S. POLICY TOWARD SYRIA THAT CERTAINLY SO FAR IS THE MOST SIGNIFICANT DEVELOPMENT ON THIS TRIP.

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

YOU CANNOT TAKE YOUR EYES AWAY FROM THE IMAGES EARLIER TODAY.

IT HAS BEEN 25 YEARS SINCE A UNITED STATES PRESIDENT HAS MET WITH A SYRIAN LEADER LIKE THIS.

IT WAS ON-THE-FLY, A 30 MINUTE MEETING WITH TRANSLATION.

THE FACT THAT THERE WAS THIS MEETING A DAY AFTER SANCTIONS EXTRAORDINARY.

SOMETHING THAT THE WHITE HOUSE ACTUALLY KEPT A LID ON.

THEY DID NOT TELEGRAPH THIS IN ADVANCE AT ALL.

OF COURSE, WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN AFTER THIS.

WE DO NOT KNOW THE NEXT STEPS HERE.

EVEN GIVEN THE PRESIDENTS PAST, THE U.S. IS AT LEAST FOR NOW LOOKING OVER THAT DONALD TRUMP IS PRAISING HIM AS A FIGHTER.

VERY ATTRACTIVE MAN, AS HE DESCRIBED IT, A MAN WITH A STRONG PASS.

>> INDEED, A STRONG PAST, A FORMER JIHADIST WHO HAS REJECTED THAT.

CAN HE RECONCILE ALL OF SYRIA'S VERY DIVISIVE CONSTITUTIONAL PARTS.

NEW SYRIA, WHAT ABOUT A NEW RELATIONSHIP WITH SAUDI ARABIA?

IT LOOKS LIKE PRESIDENT TRUMP, HE MADE THAT HIS STOP DURING HIS FIRST TRIP.

AFTER THAT, THERE WAS ALL OF THE BUSINESS.

THE FOLD.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP IS RESPONSIBLE FOR LIFTING THE CROWN PRINCE BACK INTO THE FOLD.

DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THE PRESIDENT KEPT HIM AT ARMS LENGTH DESCRIBING THE KINGDOM AS A PARIAH.

JAMAAL KHASHQUJI AS YOU SAID.

DONALD TRUMP HAS NEVER BEEN BOTHERED BY THAT, THAT WAS CLEAR.

WATCHING THEM ARM IN ARM, SIDE BY SIDE FOR 12 HOURS.

THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT TALKED ABOUT A NEW GENERATION OF LEADERS IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

STRIKING, 70-YEAR-OLD DONALD TRUMP SITTING NEXT TO 39-YEAR- OLD CROWN PRINCE WHO IS THE KING IN WAITING, OBVIOUSLY.

THAT IS THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE FROM THE TRIP EIGHT YEARS AGO, WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP MADE THAT TRIP.

OF WORSE, THE CROWN PRINCE WAS IN THE BACKGROUND.

THE KING WAS IN THE FOREGROUND.

>> VERY QUICKLY, LAST FEW SECONDS.

HE IS CONSPICUOUSLY NOT GOING TO ISRAEL.

THERE IS SOME DIPLOMACY WE UNDERSTAND FROM U.S. DIPLOMATS, ENVOYS DOING IT BY PHONE FROM QATAR.

IS THERE AN ISSUE FROM TRUMPING THIS GOVERNMENT AND WHAT CAN THEY ACHIEVE BY PHONE CALLS BETWEEN HAMAS AND THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT?

>> IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE THEY COULD ACHIEVE ANYTHING REALLY SIGNIFICANT AT ALL BY PHONE CALL.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS A LASTING ISSUE BETWEEN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU WHO HAS BEEN TO THE WHITE HOUSE IN RECENT MONTHS.

IT IS A SNOB.

A DEALMAKING TRIP.

IT IS ALSO A TRIP TO THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT TO POKE HIS EYES IN OR PUT HIS FINGERS IN AND HAVE EYES ON IT.

THE U.S. IS NOT THRILLED BY ANY BEEN HANDLING THIS AND THEY DID NOT GO THERE BECAUSE THERE IS NO DELIVERABLE THAT THEY CAN GET .

>> OF COURSE, YES, THE U.S. IS THE ONLY ONE WITH THE INCREDIBLE INFLUENCE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

JEFF, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>>> HIGHER STAKES DIPLOMACY HAPPENING IN TURKEY THIS WEEK.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKY WILL BE THERE ON THURSDAY AWAITING FOR PRESIDENT PUTIN.

A DELEGATION IS GOING, MINISTERS ALL ALSO MEETING IN TURKEY RIGHT NOW.

WHERE DOES THE EUROPEAN UNION STAND IN ALL OF THIS?

RELATIONS WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ARE CERTAINLY TESTY RIGHT NOW THANKS TO TERRACE AND PUTTING AMERICA ON NOTICE THAT THEY WILL NO LONGER WITH THE BILL FOR SECURITY.

HAVE SHOWN A POLITICAL AND PERSONAL IF ANY.

CAN SHE BE THE TRANSATLANTIC BRIDGEBUILDER?

I PUT THAT AND A LOT OF ANXIETY TO THE FORMER ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER WHEN HE JOINED ME IN THE STUDIO.

PRIME MINISTER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT IS IMPORTANT AND INTERESTING, ITALY IS PLAYING A VERY INTERESTING ROLE.

THE CURRENT PRIME MINISTER THINKING THAT SHE CAN BE A BRIDGE BUILDER BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE REST OF EUROPE.

HOW IS THAT GOING, DO YOU THINK?

>> WITH TRUMP, IT IS NOT EASY.

I THINK THAT GIORGIA MELONI HAS A GOOD STABILITY IN THE GOVERNMENT.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE REAL BRIDGE WILL BE GERMANY, NOT ITALY.

WITH THE NEW CHANCELLOR.

>> TRUMP LIKES HER, CALLS HER A GAME CHANGER AND GIVES HER A LOT OF COMPLIMENTS.

>> TRUMP IS VERY NOT DIPLOMATIC IN THE PAST.

SHE IS FANTASTIC, SHE IS GOOD, GREAT JOB.

I HOPE, OF COURSE, EVERYONE COULD HELP TO CREATE A SOLID BRIDGE BETWEEN EUROPE AND THE USA.

I THINK THAT REAL LEADERSHIP IN EUROPE WILL BE AGAIN, FRANCE AND GERMANY.

YES.

A MATHEMATICAL TERM.

THE WAY THAT NORTH KOREA, HAMAS, IS OUT OF THE BOX.

COULD BE THE WHITE HOUSE ABLE TO SPEAK TO EVERYONE.

TRUMP IS THAT.

>> THAT IS A GOOD THING.

>> DEPENDS.

>> FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 20 YEARS, AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT HAS MET WITH THE NEW PRESIDENT, THE INTERIM, WHATEVER HE IS, OF SYRIA AND AGREED TO LIFT THE SANCTIONS.

GOOD LUCK, SYRIA, MAKE YOURSELF GREAT.

FIRST TIME IN 20 YEARS.

>> I DON'T THINK THAT IS VERY ACCEPTABLE AND NORMAL FOR A FORMER POLITICIAN AS MYSELF.

I DO DIPLOMACY VERY DIFFERENTLY.

SO, THIS IS TRUMP.

YOU CAN LOVE, YOU CAN HATE.

I PREFER TRUMP WHEN HE SIGNS AGREEMENT.

WHEN TRUMP SIGNS EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

MOST THINK THAT THE TRADE WAR WITH TRUMP WILL LAUNCH.

NOW, YOU PROBABLY CHANGE THE IDEA.

THE GUYS INSIDE IN THE WHITE HOUSE EXPLAINED TO HIM, MR. PRESIDENT, DO NOT EXAGGERATE.

ONE MONTH AGO, AMERICA RISKED A LOT.

WE HAVE A NEW WORLD ORDER.

>> THERE IS A LOT OF ANXIETY BETWEEN EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES.

CLOSE ALLIES FOR THE PAST 80 EUROPEANS ARE SAYING, HE DID A DEAL WITH CHINA.

HE DID A DEAL WITH BRITAIN.

BUT WE STILL HAVE NOTHING AND NO DEAL.

ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT THIS IS BECOMING AN UNBREAKABLE BRIDGE?

IS IT REVOCABLE?

YOU CANNOT GET ACROSS THIS DIVIDE AT THE MOMENT?

>> I'M WORRIED, OF COURSE.

I THINK THAT THE GOOD SOLUTION IS IN OUR HANDS.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

IMAGINE USA AND EUROPE TOGETHER.

I BELIEVE IN THAT ALLIANCE AND WE REMAIN.

>> IT IS IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO IMAGINE THEM TOGETHER?

>> WE STAY TOGETHER.

WE CONTINUE TOGETHER.

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

TWO, TRUMP HAS TO ACCEPT THE IDEA THAT EUROPE IS NOT THE PROBLEM FOR THE UNITED STATES.

EUROPE IS THE BEST ALLIANCE FOR THE UNITED STATES.

IF WE HAVE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT FRANCE, ABOUT TRADE, WE HAVE TO FIX AN AGREEMENT.

OPINION.

A VERY PROUD BELIEVER IN THE UNITED STATES OF EUROPE DREAM.

I THINK EUROPE HAS TO WAKE UP.

>> HE SAYS THE UNITED STATES OF EUROPE DREAM WAS DESIGNED TO SCREW AMERICA.

TRUMP BELIEVES THAT HOWEVER IT IS DESIGNED FOR EUROPE, IT IS NOT A FRIEND OF AMERICAS.

>> THAT IS A MISTAKE.

THAT IS AN ABSOLUTELY ACCEPTABLE IDEA.

AMERICA IS BIGGER THAN THE SINGLE PRESIDENT.

NOW THERE IS TRUMP FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS.

WE HAVE TO WORK WITH HIM.

AT THE SAME TIME, EUROPE HAS TO THINK ABOUT THE BUREAUCRACY, EUROPE HAS TO THINK ABOUT SOME IDEOLOGICAL APPROACH.

THE GREEN DEAL, THE IDEA OF CHANGE IS CORRECT.

DESTROY EUROPEAN MONEY FACTORY WAS A MISTAKE.

GERMANY AND ITALY.

I THINK THAT EVERYONE TRY TO GO IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

TRUMP COME BACK TO THE CRAZY TRADE WAR AGAINST EUROPE.

AT THE SAME TIME, EUROPE HAS TO RECAP.

WE HAVE TO BE A LAB AND NOT A MUSEUM.

>> LET ME ASK ABOUT THE LAB OF PAYING FOR YOUR OWN SECURITY AND DEFENSE.

PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THE TIME HAS COME.

MANY BELIEVE THAT YOU CANNOT SUDDENLY DO IT OVERNIGHT WHILE THERE IS A WAR WAGING ON YOUR CONTINENT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

AND EUROPE MAKE UP THE DEFICIT IN WEAPONS AND ASSISTANCE THAT AMERICA IS CUTTING OFF FROM UKRAINE?

AND DO YOU THINK YOUR COUNTRY STILL STAYS WITH DEFENDING UKRAINE?

>> TWO THINGS, FIRST, IN 1992 AS EUROPEANS UP 2.6% INVESTMENT IN MILITARY ISSUES.

NOW WE ARRIVE IN 2014, 1.1% OF GDP.

>> WHAT HAPPENED?

>> CONSUMERISM FAILURE, EVERYONE THINKS THAT THIS IS THE END OF HISTORY.

YOU REMEMBER?

THAT IS INTERESTING TO THINK.

IN 2014 WE SIGNED, I WAS THERE, IN THE SUMMIT LED BY BARACK OBAMA.

WE SIGNED A COMMITMENT, WE WILL COME BACK TO 2%.

WE HAVE TO COME BACK TO THIS PART OF BUSINESS.

THE PROBLEM IS, WHAT TYPE OF INVESTMENT WE WANT TO DO.

AMERICA, INVEST IN FRANCE AND CREATE A DUAL USE INTERNET, HEALTHCARE, INVESTMENT, LINKED TO FRANCE.

USE IT.

EUROPE INVESTED TOO MUCH IN BUREAUCRACY AND WITH FRANCE AND MILITARY ISSUES.

INVESTMENT.

WE CONTINUE TO WORK .

THAT IS A MISTAKE OF THE ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER.

>> WHICH IS THE MISTAKE?

SHE HAS BEEN DEFENDING UKRAINE.

>> THE MISTAKE WAS WHEN SHE DECIDED TO NOT STAY WITH MACRON .

>> SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN?

>> THE SAME TRAIN WAS A TRAIN WITH MACRON, THE FORMER CHANCELLOR , SCHOLZ AND THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER.

NOW, UNFORTUNATELY, POLAND IS IN OUR PLACE.

ITALY HAS TO BE WITH THE OTHER EUROPEAN GUYS.

THERE WAS A MISTAKE, OF COURSE.

THAT WAS A MISTAKE.

I THINK WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO CREATE THE CONDITIONS FOR A VERY LONG AND RIGHT PIECE.

>> SAID THAT THIS MOMENT CALLS FOR A SPECIAL ENVOY IN EUROPE TO DEAL WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

THE CHINESE HAVE A SPECIAL ENVOY TO DEAL WITH THE TRADE ISSUE.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS EVEN A POSSIBILITY?

SHOULD IT BE GIORGIA MELONI?

>> I WILL BE FRANK WITH YOU.

WE CANNOT ACCEPT THE IDEA TODAY IN EUROPE, WE HAVE A PROBLEM.

THE PROBLEM IS LACK OF POLITICS AND TOO MUCH BUREAUCRACY IN EUROPE.

TOO MUCH COMMISSIONERS, TOO MANY PEOPLE, EUROPE, -- >> WHAT THEY ARE SAYING, THEY HAVE A LACK OF TRUST NOW.

THE FAMILY WITH THE U.S. IS BEING BROKEN.

>> IF WE HAVE AN INTERNAL ORGANIZATION WITHOUT A CLEAR RESPONSIBILITY.

MY IDEA TO CREATE A SPECIAL ENVOY TO DIALOGUE WITH TRUMP .

THE NAME IS THE BEST NAME IN EUROPE YOUR >> FORMER PRIME MINISTER, FORMER CENTRAL BANKER.

>> YES.

HE WORKS FOR EVERYONE.

>> HE WROTE ABOUT THE OPPORTUNITIES IN EUROPE.

I PROPOSE THREE YEARS AGO TO CREATE A SPECIAL ENVOY FOR THE WORLD BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

I PROPOSE THE NAME OF TONY BLAIR.

WE HAVE TO BRING THE BEST GUYS.

>> NO WOMEN?

>> YES, SORRY.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

I WAS THE ONLY ONE, PRIME MINISTER WITH 50% OF WOMEN IN MY CABINET.

ONLY ONE.

69 GOVERNMENT AND ONLY MY GOVERNMENT, 50-50.

I BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE TO CREATE A EUROPE MORE EFFICIENT THEN.

AND WHAT GOES IN THIS DIRECTION.

>> IN FEBRUARY, ALL OF THIS NICE STUFF YOU SAY ABOUT HOW WE HAVE TO STAY TOGETHER AND THIS IS TEMPORARY.

JD VANCE, I WAS THERE AT THE SECURITY CONFERENCE.

HE SMACKED EUROPE AROUND AND PUT HIS FAITH AND AMERICA'S WEIGHT BEHIND THE FAR RIGHT IN GERMANY.

THE AFD.

THE FAR RIGHT IN MANY PARTS OF EUROPE ARE GAINING A LOT OF GROUND.

THEY ARE WINNING VERY IMPORTANT ELECTIONS IN POSITIONS OF POWER.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHO COMES TO EUROPE AND SAYS TO PEOPLE LIKE YOU, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM?

>> I THINK THIS IS ABSOLUTELY CRAZY AND UNACCEPTABLE.

BUT AFTER THIS STATEMENT OF JD VANCE AND THE STATEMENT OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, LET'S COME BACK TO WIN THANKS FROM THE GREAT SUPPORT OF THE FAR RIGHT FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

NOBODY BELIEVED IT WAS POSSIBLE.

IN FEBRUARY, IN CANADA, LAST THE TRADITIONAL LEFT.

I LOVE THAT FOR MY COUNTRY.

IN CANADA, NOBODY EXPECTED THE VICTORY.

ALSO THANKS TO THE POLITICS FROM TRUMP, VANCE.

THE SAME IN AUSTRALIA.

ANTHONY --WON THE ELECTION AND THE POLLS.

IF JD VANCE, WE WILL SPEAK IN THE FUTURE .

EUROPE, AGAIN, GOOD NEWS.

>> YOU SAID YOU SHOULD NOT BE COMING TO ITALY AGAIN WITHOUT APOLOGIZING FOR CALLING YOU ALL PARASITES AND PATHETIC FREELOADERS.

>> EUROPE IS A PROBLEM.

DECIDING TO SPEND TIME AND STAY WITH US IN ROME.

>> NOT AN OFFICIAL VISITOR TO THE POPE, FRANCIS.

I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION, YOU ARE THE ONLY WORLD LEADER OR FORMER WORLD LEADER WHO CALLED FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN TO LEAVE THE RACE.

WHY DID YOU DO THAT?

>> I LOVE JOE.

WHEN HE WAS VICE PRESIDENT, I WORK WITH HIM AND PRESIDENT OBAMA VERY STRONGLY.

WE HAD A VERY GREAT COOPERATION.

I LOVE HIS HUMANITY AND HIS FRIENDSHIP.

AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK THREE YEARS AGO IT WAS CLEAR, DEMOCRATS NEEDED A DIFFERENT CANDIDATE.

AND PROBABLY IF DEMOCRATS DECIDED TO ORGANIZE PRIMARIES IN THE RIGHT TIME, PROBABLY TODAY, NOT TRUMP.

>> PRIME MINISTER MATTEO RENZI, THANK YOU.

>>> THE ASSOCIATED PRESS REPORTS THAT 20 CHILDREN WERE KILLED IN THE LATEST STRIKES.

THERE IS TRULY NO RESPITE FOR THE CIVILIANS OF GAZA.

AND NO AID COMING IN.

THE WHOLE OF GAZA IS AT HIGH RISK OF FAMINE.

THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS PUBLICLY DISMISSED THOSE WARNINGS.

THIS IS WHAT THE DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER TOLD ME ON THIS LAST WEEK.

THE ARE YOU DENYING THAT PEOPLE ARE DYING OF STARVATION IN GAZA?

THERE IS A FAMINE THAT IS IMMINENT NOW.

THIS IS CATEGORIZED AND REPORTED BY INTERNATIONAL DOCTORS, INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN SPIRIT ARE YOU DENYING THAT, SERIOUSLY?

>> THESE ARE COMPLETE LIES.

I WILL TELL YOU WHAT, WE HEARD IT A YEAR AGO.

YOU HEARD ABOUT THE STARVATION AND YOU SAW THAT IT WAS A LIE.

>> WE DIDN'T.

THAT IS WHY I AM ASKING YOU.

>> THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTS THAT IDF OFFICIALS ARE REPORTING THEMSELVES THAT STARVATION IS IMMINENT IN GAZA RIGHT NOW.

ON FRIDAY, THOUSANDS OF TO RALLY AGAINST THIS ONGOING WAR.

PART OF THE PEOPLE'S PIECE SUMMIT.

ORGANIZED BY STANDING TOGETHER WHICH IS A JEWISH AND ARAB MOVEMENT FOR PEACE.

IT'S CODIRECTORS ARE JOINING ME HERE IN OUR STUDIO.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

AT SUCH AN IMPORTANT MOMENT TO HAVE YOU BOTH.

I AM WONDERING, EVEN IF YOU THINK WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP'S VISIT, EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT GOING TO ISRAEL, THERE IS A MOMENT, A TURNING POINT, ALL OF THE CHATTER SEEMS TO BE AGAINST THIS ONGOING WAR.

WHAT YOU THINK AS AN ISRAELI?

>> WE ARE IN A VERY DANGEROUS MOMENT.

WE ALL HEARD OUR GOVERNMENT TO DEEPEN THE CONTROL IN GAZA AND GO TO A NEW MILITARY OPERATION TO PERMANENTLY OCCUPY GAZA AND REMOVE ALL OF THE RESIDENTS OF GAZA TO THE SOUTH TWO CAMPS AND THIS IS DANGEROUS BECAUSE IT AND KILLING OF CHILDREN EVERY DAY AND WILL NOT BRING BACK THE HOSTAGES AND FOR SURE WILL NOT BRING US OUR SAFETY.

AT THE SAME TIME, THERE IS A REAL CHANCE FOR A DEAL.

A CHANCE TO COME BACK TO THE DEAL THAT WAS THE ONLY THING THAT RELEASED THE HOSTAGES AND BROUGHT THEM BACK TO THEIR FAMILIES AND THE ONLY THING THAT STOPPED THE DAILY KILLING OF CHILDREN AND FAMILIES IN GAZA.

THEY SHOULD BE THE WAY.

THE VISIT OF TRUMP IN THE REGION, IT KIND OF GIVES US THE BELIEF THAT IT IS POSSIBLE.

DO YOU KNOW WHO STOPS IT?

THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT.

>> IN FACT, THE TIMES OF ISRAEL HAS REPORTED THAT TRUMPS ENVOY THAT THEY HAVE TOLD HOSTAGE FAMILIES THAT THEY ARE NEEDLESSLY EXTENDING THIS WAR.

YOU ARE BOTH ISRAELIS.

YOU ARE JEWISH ISRAELI, ARAB ISRAELI, PALESTINIAN ISRAELI.

TELL ME ABOUT THE MOVEMENT TOWARDS PEACE THAT YOU REPRESENT.

>> OF COURSE, STANDING TOGETHER WORKS INSIDE OF THE ISRAELI SOCIETY.

WIESE SINCE THE OCTOBER 7th, WE ARE FOCUSING ON THE DEMAND OF HAVING A HOSTAGE DEAL, A CEASE- FIRE, THIS DEMAND BECAME MORE POPULAR WITH EACH AND EVERY HALF A YEAR AFTER THIS WAR.

WHAT WE SEE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW WITHIN THE ISRAELI SIDE, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE DEAL WAS BROKEN BY OUR GOVERNMENT, SOME KIND OF A ROSE WITHIN OUR PEOPLE.

HUGE DEMAND TO GO BACK TO A CEASE-FIRE, NOT JUST A CEASE- FIRE BUT ALSO TO STOP THE WAR.

WE KNOW AND WE BELIEVE THAT RIGHT NOW, THIS WAR IS NOT SERVING ANYBODY.

IT IS NOT SERVING THE PEOPLE IN PALESTINE BUT ALSO THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN SOUTHERN ISRAEL.

THE ONLY REASON THIS WAR IS CONTINUING RIGHT NOW, IS THAT IT IS BECAUSE OF THE POLITICAL INTEREST AND SURVIVAL OF NETANYAHU.

THE GOVERNMENT WILL BE DISMANTLED.

THERE IS NO MAJORITY WITHIN THE ISRAELI SOCIETY FOR THIS GOVERNMENT ANYMORE.

>> THAT IS INTERESTING.

YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW ALL OF THE POLLS ALL OF THE TIME.

YOU HAVE GATHERED AND CALLED FOR A PROTEST THIS LAST FRIDAY.

HOW DID IT GO?

WERE YOU PLEASED WITH THE RESPONSE, ARABS AND JEWS TO COME TOGETHER .

>> DOZENS OF PEACE AND ANTIWAR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, IN ISRAEL, TO CALL TO OCCUPY GAZA AND YOU CALL TO THE SETTLEMENTS IN GAZA.

WE DECIDED TO GO TO THIS VENUE AND SPEAK ABOUT PEACE.

>> WHAT IS THE VENUE?

WHAT IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT IT?

>> THE VENUE WHERE THEY HOLD THE RIGHT-WING CONVENTIONS IN JERUSALEM.

A PLACE THAT SHOULD BE THE CAPITAL OF PALESTINE AND ISRAEL.

WE DECIDED TO SPEAK NOT ONLY DEMAND FOR PEACE BECAUSE IT IS A RARE WORD IN OUR SOCIETY AND THE RIGHT-WING POLITICIANS.

WE DECIDED TO NORMALIZE THE DEMAND FOR PEACE AND SPEAK AGAINST THE WAR AND CALL TO REFUSE THE WAR.

IT WAS A VERY POPULAR CALL THEIR TO REFUSE THE WAR OF NETANYAHU.

>> WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO REFUSE THE WAR?

I DON'T THINK YOU CAN ACTUALLY SAY, DON'T GO AND DON'T FOLLOW THE CALL OF ORDERS OR CAN YOU?

>> TO REFUSE THIS MEANS, DO NOT GO WITHIN THE --OF THIS WAR.

THE ONLY WAY TO DISMANTLE HAMAS AND THE ONLY WAY TO CONQUER HAMAS AND TAKE THE POWER OF HAMAS IS TO STOP THE BOMBING OF GAZA AND REFUSE THE NARRATIVE.

MILITARY OPERATIONS WILL NOT BRING ANY CHANGE.

>> THE LATEST BOMBARDMENTS WHICH HAVE CAUSED A LOT OF INTERNATIONAL DISTRESS IN GAZA ITSELF, HAS BEEN APPARENTLY TO TARGET THE BROTHER OF YAHYA SINWAR .

TO REACH OUT TO YOUR AEROBIC BRETHREN AND FIND THAT COMMON GROUND.

WAS IT DIFFICULT FOR YOU AND OTHER ARAB ISRAELIS TO MEET WITH YOUR JEWISH BRETHREN AFTER THESE 19 MONTHS OF HORROR THAT ARE INFLICTED IN GAZA?

THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF A COMPETITION OF VICTIMHOOD.

THAT IS HOW IT IS BEING DESCRIBED.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT IS THE FIRST THING WE DID AFTER OCTOBER 7 AFTER WE SAW THE VIDEOS WITH THE ARMED HAMAS FIGHTERS AND AFTER WE SAW THE KIDNAPS AND THE SLAUGHTER IN THE SOUTH BY HAMAS .

WE UNDERSTOOD THAT THIS IS A MOMENT LIKE NEVER BEFORE.

WE UNDERSTOOD IT IS A LIFE- CHANGING EVENT.

WE WENT ON ZOOM, THE ENTIRE LEADERSHIP STANDING TOGETHER, HALF PALESTINIANS AND HALF JEWS AND WE CRIED.

MANY TOUGH FEELINGS.

PEOPLE ARE CRYING, PEOPLE ARE SPEAKING, PEOPLE ARE SAYING NOW IT IS GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT WE CAN ONLY BE AFRAID OF AND FROM THAT, WE ASSUME IF WE ARE FEELING THIS FEELING TOGETHER IT MUST MEAN THAT EVERYONE IS AFRAID.

HE MUST ALSO MEAN THAT WE CAN IMAGINE TOGETHER AND ACT TOGETHER TO SAY THAT A REVENGE WAR WILL NOT BE THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

>> HE IS DESCRIBING SOMETHING INCREDIBLY EMOTIONAL AND INCREDIBLY BRAVE TO HAVE DONE THAT ZOOM.

QUICKLY AFTER OCTOBER 7th YOU HAVE HAD EVERYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT IT?

>> I ALWAYS SAY, I AM A BIT AMAZED, SURPRISED, AND MORE FULL OF HOPE.

THE FACT THAT WE WERE ABLE TO STILL BE A MOVEMENT AND BE ABLE TO GO OUT TO THE STREET AND SIT DOWN AND THINK, WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO, TO STILL UNDERSTAND THAT WE NEED A POLITICAL VISION, IS AMERICA ITSELF.

STANDING TOGETHER, IF YOU LOOK AT OUR PEOPLE AND THE ACTIVISM THAT WE DO, YOU WILL SEE DIFFERENT GROUPS.

WE HAVE ACTIVISTS WHO HAVE HAD FAMILIES AND HAVE FAMILIES IN GAZA.

WE HAVE ACTIVISTS WHO HAVE HAD THEIR BELOVED ONE KILLED BY THE HAMAS ATTACK.

BOTH OF US WERE ABLE TO SIT DOWN AND UNDERSTAND THAT THE PAIN IS A MUTUAL PAIN AND UNDERSTAND THAT IN ORDER TO GET TO A PLACE WHERE IT DOES NOT BECOME WORSE AND WHERE IT HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR 19 MONTHS, WE NEED TO STICK TOGETHER AND BRING A VOICE THAT SPEAKS ABOUT THE BENEFITS OF THE PEOPLE LIVING IN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.

WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT.

>> WHICH IS REMARKABLE.

WE DO NOT GET TO SEE IT THAT MUCH.

WE SEEK YOU OUT AND WE WANT TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS.

SOMEHOW, THE GENERAL MEDIA OR THE GENERAL POPULATION DOES NOT PUT A FOCUS ON NEW GRASSROOTS TEAMS OF ACTIVISTS AND PEACE LOVERS AND PEACE BUILDERS.

>> IT IS UNDERSTOOD.

IT IS AMAZING FOR US TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU SEE HERE IN EUROPE AND THE U.S. AND THE REST OF THE WORLD.

IT IS NOT WHAT WE SEE IN OUR NEWS.

YOU SEE GAZA, YOU SEE DEAD CHILDREN IN GAZA.

YOU SEE THE REBELS.

YOU SEE THE DESTRUCTION.

WHAT CAN ONLY BE REVENGE AND CAN NEVER BE SELF-DEFENSE.

WE SEE SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

>> WHAT DO YOU SEE?

>> TOOK US A YEAR AND HAVE TO START SEEING WHAT WAS GOING ON IN GAZA.

RIGHT NOW AS YOU SAW, OUR DEPUTY MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS DENIED THAT THERE IS STARVATION IN GAZA WHICH WE HAVE SEEN IN THE NEW YORK TIMES PIECE.

WE SEE THE MEDIA BETRAYING ITS DEEPEST ROLE OF SHOWING THE TRUTH.

OF REPORTING.

>> YOUR OWN MEDIA?

>> WE UNDERSTAND WHEN YOU SEE THOSE THINGS THAT ARE DONE IN OUR NAME, THOSE THINGS THAT ARE DONE BY US, IT IS UNDERSTOOD THAT THIS IS THE MAIN FOCUS OF THE STORY.

THERE IS A GROWING PART OF THE SOCIETY IN ISRAEL THAT IS FIGHTING AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT.

AND AS ANY OTHER SOCIETY IN THE WORLD, ISRAELIS OR JEWS, WE ARE NOT OUR GOVERNMENT.

WE ARE NOT NETANYAHU.

WE DO NOT WANT TO HAVE THIS GOVERNMENT.

MOST ISRAELIS HAVE BEEN IN THE STREETS BEFORE THE WAR STARTED DEMANDING THIS GOVERNMENT TO GO AND NOW THIS GOVERNMENT IS CONTINUING THE WAR ONLY TO SURVIVE.

>> THERE MUST BE A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT THE GOVERNMENT.

I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY CONTINUE FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE AS AN ARAB-ISRAELI , DO THE PALESTINIANS ALSO FEEL THIS EMPATHY TOWARDS YOUR ATTEMPTS?

DO THEY FEEL EMPATHY TOWARDS WHAT HAPPENED TO ISRAELIS ON OCTOBER 7th?

DO YOU HAVE THIS COMMON FEELING THAT IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET TO ANY FUTURE?

>> I THINK WHAT IS VERY MUCH COMMON RIGHT NOW IS THE NEED BY PEOPLE WHETHER YOU ARE JEWISH OR PALESTINIAN, TO SEE AN AND TO WHAT IS HAPPENING.

IF YOU SIT IN ONE ROOM WITH OUR ACTIVISTS, WEST BANK, ALL PALESTINIANS, ASK THEM SOME QUESTIONS.

DO YOU WANT AN END TO THIS WAR, THEY WILL SAY YES.

I THINK THAT THE POLES THAT WE HAD SHOW THAT THE PEOPLE IN GAZA, THEY DID NOT SEE HAMAS AS LEADERSHIP.

CITY, WE ARE NOT OUR GOVERNMENT.

THE SAME THING GOES FOR PEOPLE IN GAZA.

THAT IS A REALITY.

POLITICIANS, THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW THAT SEEK TO CONQUER MORE LAND I WANT TO HAVE MORE STARVATION, AND WANT TO THROW THEM OUT OF GAZA.

>> THEY SAY IT.

YOU ARE NOT JUST MAKING THIS UP.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT HOW SOME PALESTINIANS HAVE PUSHED BACK ON YOU.

I WILL GET IT STRAIGHT HERE.

THEY ACCUSE YOU OF NORMALIZING THE OCCUPATION.

THE MOVEMENT HAVE SAID THAT, AGAIN, NORMALIZING THINGS.

THEY DO NOT WANT YOU TO HAVE THIS OUTREACH TO COME TO SOME SOLUTION.

>> WHEN YOU SIT IN THE COMFORT OF YOUR HOME IN THE U.S. AND IN EUROPE, IT IS MUCH EASIER TO LOOK AT US AND WHAT IS HAPPENING IN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE AND JUST THINK THAT WE ARE JUST ONE PAGE.

DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE REALITIES THAT WE LIVE, IT CAN SOMETIMES BE OUT OF IGNORANCE.

MY REALITY THAT I AM BORN INTO, I AM A PALESTINIAN CITIZEN AND I AM ONE OF THE 20% OF PALESTINIANS THAT STATE.

WE ARE SECOND-CLASS CITIZENS.

THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS PUT A LAW THAT DECLARES THAT WE ARE AS NON-JEWS, WE ARE PERSECUTED EACH AND EVERY DAY.

IF WE SPEAK ANYTHING ABOUT GAZA.

TWO, AND BOYCOTT THE ONLY PEOPLE AND THE ONLY ACTIVISTS, BOTH JEWS AND PALESTINIANS THAT WOULD DARE TO STAND UP AGAINST THIS GOVERNMENT , TO SPEAK A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE AND SAY THAT THIS OCCUPATION MUST END, THIS WAR MUST END, YOU MUST BE PUT ON THE TABLE SO THAT THE HOSTAGES CAN COME BACK HOME, HE MUST GO AGAINST THE WILL OF PEOPLE.

IF YOU ARE A TRUE REVOLUTIONARY, YOU UNDERSTAND SUFFER AND YOU HAVE GOVERNMENTS.

WE ORGANIZE AND MOBILIZE PEOPLE AND WE TALK WITH OUR PEOPLE WITHIN OUR SOCIETY.

>>, WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT THIS IS GOING TO END?

YOUR MOVEMENT AND OTHERS BELIEVE THAT LIKE YOU DO, WILL SOMEHOW SEE A RESOLUTION?

>> I THINK THAT CONFLICTS EVENTUALLY RESOLVED.

WE HAVE A LOT OF EXAMPLES IN THE WORLD WHERE WE SAW PEOPLE FIGHTING AND SPEAKING TO EACH OTHER AND NOT HAVING THE SLIGHTEST BELIEF THAT WITHIN A YEAR HE CAN AND.

CONFLICTS CAN END.

WE HAD A WAR WITH EGYPT, WE HAVE PEACE WITH EGYPT RIGHT NOW.

YOU KNOW WHAT, YOU CANNOT OCCUPY AND CONTROL MILLIONS OF PEOPLE FOR DECADES AND EXPECT TO HAVE SECURITY.

IF WE END OCCUPATION WE WILL HAVE ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN PEACE.

>> IS AMAZING TO HEAR YOUR VOICES AND IS TRULY INSPIRING.

GOOD LUCK.

>>> AS WE MENTIONED EARLIER, TRUMPS TRIP TO THE MIDDLE EAST THIS WEEK DOES NOT INCLUDE A STOP IN ISRAEL.

DOES THIS SIGNAL A GROWING DIVIDE BETWEEN THE TWO ALLIES OR SOMETHING ELSE COMPLETELY?

TOM FRIEDMAN SAYS THAT THIS ALLIANCE IS UNSURPRISINGLY FRAYED RIGHT NOW GIVEN THIS ISRAELI GOVERNMENT'S APPROACH TO THE WAR AGAINST HAMAS.

HE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HIS RECENT OP-ED ON THIS TOPIC.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ONCE AGAIN.

YOU ARE A LONG TIME MIDDLE EAST WATCHER, MOST PEOPLE KNOW THIS FROM YOUR BEST-SELLING BOOKS, YOUR COLUMNS FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES, YOU HAVE BEEN WATCHING THIS REGION FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND YOU HAVE WRITTEN SOME VERY TOUGH NIECES.

I HAVE TO SAY, THIS IS ONE OF THE TOUGHEST THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN YOU RIGHT.

YOU SAY THAT YOU HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT IS NO LONGER BEHAVING AS AN ALLY.

THIS MOST RECENT COLUMN WAS AN OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HE HAS GONE TO SAUDI ARABIA, TO THE UAE, BYPASSING ISRAEL ON THIS TRIP.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU SAY ON THIS TRIP, THE FACT THAT YOU ARE TRAVELING THERE NEXT WEEK MEETING THE LEADERS OF SAUDI ARABIA AND HAVE NO PLANS TO SEE PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IN ISRAEL SUGGESTS TO ME THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND A VITAL TRUTH, THAT THIS ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS BEHAVING IN WAYS THAT THREATEN HARD-CORE U.S. INTEREST IN THE REGION.

NETANYAHU IS NOT OUR FRIEND AND YOU GO ON TO SAY THAT I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT GENERALLY SPEAKING THE ISRAELI PEOPLE CONTINUE TO SEE THEMSELVES AS STEADFAST ALLIES OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

THIS ULTRANATIONALIST ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS NOT AMERICA'S ALLY.

THESE ARE VERY STRONG WORDS.

WHAT PROMPTED YOU TO WRITE THEM?

>> THIS IS A THEME I HAVE BEEN ON SINCE THE GOVERNMENT CAME TO POWER.

THE FIRST ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THAT HAS NOT MADE ITS PRIORITY WITH THE SURROUNDING ARAB STATES AND ISRAEL ITS NUMBER ONE PRIORITY HAS BEEN ANNEXATION OF THE WEST BANK.

THE FORMATION OF THIS COALITION.

THAT IN ITSELF IS A THREAT TO U.S.

INTERESTS.

SINCE RICHARD NIXON AFTER THE 1973 WAR ENGINEERED THE EVICTION FROM THE RUSSIANS FROM THE MIDDLE EAST.

THE GROUND WEEK FOR THE PEACE TREATY.

THE GROUNDWORK FOR THE PEACE PROCESS OF EVERY AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION.

THE U.S. IS BASICALLY SET UP AS A REGIONAL ORDER OF A PRO-U.S. GOVERNMENT IN ISRAEL THAT HAS SERVED OUR INTEREST QUITE WELL AND THE ECONOMIC INTEREST OF THE UNITED STATES AND PARTIES QUITE WELL.

THE GOVERNMENT'S ATTEMPT TO DRIVE PALESTINIANS OUT OF THE WEST BANK AND OUT OF GAZA IN PURSUIT OF A GOAL OF ANNEXATION TRENDS TO UPSET THAT WILL ORDER BUT ALSO TO DESTABILIZE TWO PILLARS OF THAT ORDER, JORDAN AND EGYPT.

THEY FEAR THAT THEY WANT TO DRIVE THE WEST BANK PALESTINIANS INTO THEIR COUNTRY.

THAT IS A FUNDAMENTAL PREDICTION OF U.S. INTEREST.

>> WHAT IS DRIVING THIS?

>> THIS IS THE MOST RIGHT-WING GOVERNMENT THAT ISRAEL HAS EVER HAD.

WHEN THIS GOVERNMENT WAS ANNOUNCED, I WILL RECALL FOR YOU, BACK IN LATE 2022, I ACTUALLY WROTE A COLUMN.

THE MORNING AFTER WAS ANNOUNCED.

THE ISRAEL THAT YOU KNEW IS OVER.

THE MEMORIES OF THIS GOVERNMENT, IF YOU ARE JEWISH- AMERICAN, YOU DID NOT GO TO JEWISH SUMMER CAMP WITH THESE PEOPLE.

THESE ARE JEWISH PROUD BOYS SUPREMACIST THAT WALK OUT OF THE SECOND TEMPLE.

YOU DO NOT KNOW THESE PEOPLE.

I WAS A NEW YORK TIMES CORRESPONDING BACK AND BE MID- 1980S WHEN THE ARCH RIGHT-WING ANTI-ARAB FIRST AMERICAN RABBI AND MEMBER OF THE MEMBER OF THE KNESSET, WHEN HE WOULD RISE TO SPEAK ON THE PODIUM, THE PRIME MINISTER USED TO WALK OUT.

TODAY, HIS IDEOLOGICAL HEIRS ARE NOT IN THIS CABINET, THEY ARE IN TWO KEY POSITIONS, FINANCE MINISTER AND MINISTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY.

>> WHEN YOU SAY THIS NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT MADE AN EXCEPTION OF THE WEST BANK ITS PRIORITY WHEN IT CAME INTO POWER WELL BEFORE THE VICIOUS INVASION ON OCTOBER 7, 2023, THE QUESTION I HAVE IS, IT DOES SEEM THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS ACTING AS THE OLD ISRAEL WAS STILL IN PLAY.

THAT THEY CAN REASON WITH NETANYAHU AND HE WAS NOT GOING TO GO THIS FAR.

WHAT DID THEY NOT SEE THAT YOU SAW?

BLESS HIM, HE WOULD SAY, I LOVE YOU, I DISAGREE WITH YOU.

YOU KNOW.

I THINK THAT HE REALLY UNDERESTIMATED HOW MUCH NETANYAHU HIMSELF HAD CHANGED.

HE CHANGED, EVER SINCE HE WAS INDICTED ON THREE DIFFERENT COUNTS OF DIFFERENT FORMS OF CORRUPTION.

AND FACED THE PROSPECT OF GOING TO JAIL.

ISRAEL HAS PUT A PRESIDENT IN JAIL AND A PRIME MINISTER IN JAIL.

IT PUTS PEOPLE IN JAIL UNLIKE SOME OTHER COUNTRIES I KNOW.

IT PUTS LEADERS IN JAIL.

THIS WAS A VERY REAL PROSPECT FOR NETANYAHU.

HE HAD TO BE IN GOVERNMENT.

BASICALLY THAT CREATED A HUGE VULNERABILITY FOR HIM.

THE ONLY WAY HE COULD GET A CABINET COALITION TO RULE WAS BY BRINGING IT TO THE CENTER OF ISRAELI POLITICS, PEOPLE WHO HAD NEVER HAD THESE POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY BEFORE.

FROM THE NATIONAL RELIGIOUS FACTION AND THE FAR RIGHT NATIONALIST FACTION.

ONCE THEY WERE IN, THEY HAD HIM OVER A BARREL.

ANYTIME HE DID NOT FOLLOW THEIR DICTATES, THEY WOULD THREATEN TO TOPPLE HIM AND EXPOSE HIM TO THE PROSPECT OF JAIL.

HE WAS NEVER A STRAIGHT SHOOTER FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.

HE WAKES UP EVERY MORNING AND THINKS ABOUT HIS INTEREST AND SOME DAYS THE FORMER WINS AND SOMETIMES THE LATTER WINS.

>> IS IT POSSIBLE THAT HE THINKS HE IS RIGHT?

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT HE JUST THINKS THAT THIS REALLY IS, THE BRUTALITY OF THIS CAMPAIGN IN GAZA, THE AGGRESSIVE EFFORTS IN THE WEST BANK, THEY ARE JUST WHAT IT TAKES TO SECURE ISRAEL.

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT HE THINKS HE IS CORRECT?

>> EXCELLENT QUESTION.

I OPPOSED THE INVASION FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.

THEY SHOULD MAKE THIS OPERATION FOLK --FOCUSED ON THE HOSTAGES AND USE THE SURGICAL TACTICS AFTER THE MUNICH MASSACRE.

NO, WE ARE GOING TO GO IN AND INVADE.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO THIS, THE ONLY WAY TO DO THIS THAT WILL GIVE YOU TIME AND LEGITIMACY AND THE RESOURCES YOU NEED IS IF YOU HAVE A PALESTINIAN PARTNER AND MAKE CLEAR THAT YOU ARE GOING INTO GAZA NOT JUST TO WIPE OUT HAMAS AND LEAVE A BARREN WASTELAND.

NOT TO GO INTO GAZA TO RESETTLE IT BUT TO REPLACE TREADWAY FOR WITH A DECENT PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY THAT WILL ONE DAY BE A PARTNER FOR PEACE.

THAT HAS EMBRACED THE PEACE ACCORDANCE.

PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE HOW INSANE THIS WAR HAS BEEN.

THIS WAS A WAR THAT WAS LAUNCHED WITH NO PLAN FOR THE MORNING AFTER.

THE REASON THERE WAS NO PLAN FOR THE MORNING AFTER IS BECAUSE NETANYAHU KNEW IF YOU EVER SAID TO HIS PARTNER AT THE P.A., THE RIGHT-WINGERS WILL BRING DOWN HIS GOVERNMENT.

THEY ABOUT THIS WAR FOR A YEAR AND A HALF WITH NO EXIT STRATEGY.

WHAT DID THEY DO?

THEY WENT IN AND DESTROYED A LOT OF HOUSES AND KILLED A LOT OF PEOPLE AND WENT OUT.

THEN THEY REAPPEARED AND WENT IN AND DESTROYED MORE HOUSES, KILLED MORE PALESTINIANS AND THEN WENT OUT.

THEN WE HAD THIS CEASE-FIRE AGREEMENT AND THAT LED TO THE FIRST HOSTAGE EXCHANGE AND THEY SAID NO, WE WILL RESUME THE WAR AND NOW THE PLAN IS TO GO IN AND STAY IN.

AND END OF THE WAR ONCE AND FOR ALL.

I WILL TELL YOU, AS A VETERAN OF THE STORY, THE FOUR MOST DANGEROUS WORDS IN THE MIDDLE EAST ARE , ONCE AND FOR ALL.

REMEMBER, ISRAEL HAS BEEN IN THE WEST BANK FOR 58 YEARS.

IT STILL DOES NOT CONTROL THE WEST BANK ENTIRELY.

THEY WILL DO THAT IN GAZA AND THE WEST BANK.

7 MILLION JEWS TRYING TO CONTROL 7 MILLION PALESTINIANS.

>> WHY IS THERE NOT MORE OF A MOVEMENT TO COUNTERACT THIS ULTRANATIONALIST BOOM AS YOU DESCRIBE IT?

>> THE ANSWER, BASICALLY, GOES TO HAMAS RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS.

ONE OF MY PROUDEST MOMENTS IN JOURNALISM WAS WHEN I INTERVIEWED THE SAUDI CROWN PRINCE.

HE LATER BECAME THE ARAB PEACE INITIATIVE.

BASED ON THE PALESTINIAN STATE IN THE WEST BANK IN JERUSALEM AND GAZA.

IT WAS AN AMAZING INITIATIVE.

THE INTERVIEW IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS I'VE EVER DONE.

IT WAS ADOPTED IN MARCH.

I DID THE INTERVIEW IN FEBRUARY AND THEN THEY HAD THE ARAB SUMMIT.

YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED AT THE FIRST NIGHT OF THAT SUMMIT?

IT COINCIDED WITH THE FIRST NIGHT OF PASSOVER.

AND A HAMAS SUICIDE BOMBER WALKED INTO A HOTEL AND BLEW HIMSELF UP WITH A SUICIDE VEST KILLING, I DON'T REMEMBER HOW THAT WAS HAMAS ANSWER TO THE FIRST ARROW PEACE INITIATIVE.

I HAVE NO BE FOR THESE PEOPLE.

THIS IS A TERRIBLE ORGANIZATION.

FOR THE STUDENTS ON CAMPUS THE MORNING AFTER OCTOBER 7th, PUT UP SIGNS, GLORY TO THE MARTYRS, SHAME ON YOU.

THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT DESTROYED THE PALESTINIAN FUTURE MORE THAN ANYBODY.

I HAVE NO ILLUSIONS ABOUT THAT AT ALL.

I AM SAYING TO ISRAEL, IF THAT IS WHO YOU HAVE GOT OUT THERE, YOU HAVE TWO OPTIONS.

PERMANENT WAR AGAINST THEM OR YOU TRY, TRY, TRY AGAIN TO NURTURE AN ALTERNATIVE.

THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE THERE, IT IS THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, IT IS CORRUPT.

IT HAS ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS.

NURTURING THAT ALTERNATIVE RATHER THAN A FOREVER WAR WILL BE MUCH BETTER, I BELIEVE FOR THE FUTURE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND PALESTINIANS.

>> THE U.S. IS NO LONGER DEMANDING THAT SAUDI ARABIA NORMALIZE TIES WITH ISRAEL AS A CONDITION TO FURTHER THE CIVIL NUCLEAR OPERATION TALKS.

AS MANY PEOPLE MAY REMEMBER, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION MADE NORMALIZATION A KEY PART OF A BROADER DEAL.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CLEARLY, SEEMS TO BE WALKING AWAY FROM THAT, WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU?

MAYBE IT SAYS THEY GOT FED UP WITH NETANYAHU.

FOR A YEAR, HE TRIED TO COME UP WITH SOME EMULATION TO SATISFY THE SAUDIS.

FOR A BIG U.S. SAUDI PROGRAM AND WE WILL AGREE TO DO THAT IF ISRAEL AGREES TO OPEN NEGOTIATIONS ON A CLEAR PATHWAY TO A PALESTINIAN STATE.

FOR A YEAR, NETANYAHU PLAYED AROUND WITH ALL KINDS OF LANGUAGE AND WHATNOT THAT WOULD THREAD THE LIDO SO HE COULD SAY THAT AND NOT BLOW UP HIS CABINET.

ADMINISTRATION NEVER BOUGHT IT AND DROP NEVER BOUGHT IT.

HE GOT FED UP WITH IT, FORGET ABOUT IT.

WE WILL DO THIS DEAL WITH SAUDI ARABIA AND I WILL GET IT THROUGH CONGRESS AND I WILL NOT WORRY ABOUT YOU NORMALIZE WITH ISRAEL.

THINK ABOUT WHAT NETANYAHU SACRIFICED .

HE TRADED THE PIECE WITH THE FAR RIGHT MEMBERS OF HIS CABINET FOR PEACE WITH SAUDI ARABIA, THE BIGGEST AND MOST IMPORTANT MUSLIM NATION, THE HOME OF THE TWO HOLY LAND SITES OF MECCA AND MEDINA.

IT WOULD NOT ONLY OPEN ISRAEL TO THE WHOLE MUSLIM WORLD FOR INVESTMENT, TRADE AND OPPORTUNITY AND FOR MUSLIMS TO GO TO ISRAEL, IT WOULD'VE DIFFUSED TENSIONS BETWEEN JEWS AND MUSLIMS THAT HAVE BEEN THERE SINCE THE BIRTH OF ZIONISM.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A HUGE CHANGE.

AND NETANYAHU BASICALLY TRADED HIS POLITICAL INTERESTS PEACE WITH SAUDI ARABIA.

>> AGAIN, YOUR COLUMN WAS WRITTEN AS AN OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

YOU WROTE THAT IN THE MIDDLE EAST YOU HAVE SOME GOOD AND INDEPENDENT INSTINCTS.

DOES HE REALLY?

IS IT MORE THAT HE TENDS TO POSITION HIS FOREIGN POLICY IN OPPOSITION TO WHATEVER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION DID?

IF THAT IS THE CASE, THAT IS NOT REALLY A STRATEGY, THAT IS A REACTION.

>> BASICALLY, DEALING WITH TRUMPS INSTINCTS AND WHATNOT IS A PERILOUS ADVENTURE.

WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SUGGEST, HIS WILLINGNESS TO NEGOTIATE DIRECTLY WITH HAMAS FOR THE RELEASE OF AN AMERICAN HOSTAGE TO HIS INTEREST AND REFUSAL TO NEGOTIATE WAS A GOOD THING.

IT HAS SHAKEN UP ISRAELI POLITICS WHICH IS IN TURMOIL TODAY BECAUSE OF THAT.

HIS ABILITY TO DO A DEAL WITH THE --WAS, ONE COULD MAKE A GOOD ARGUMENT WITH THAT.

HIS WILLINGNESS TO NEGOTIATE WITH IRAN, WE WILL HAVE TO SEE, DEPENDS ON WHAT THE DEAL LOOKS LIKE.

BIDEN WAS IN THE SITUATION AND FAIRNESS TO BIDEN, IF YOU TRIED ANY OF THESE THINGS, NETANYAHU WOULD HAVE GONE TO REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS AND THEY AND TRUMP WOULD'VE BLOCKED EVERYTHING BIDEN TRIED TO DO.

TRUMP HAS TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF THE FACT THAT HE IS NOT BIDEN.

REPUBLICANS ARE BASICALLY A TRUMP COLT THAT WILL DO WHATEVER HE TELLS THEM TO DO.

HE IS NOT WORRIED ABOUT BEING OUTFLANKED ON HIS RIGHT BY REPUBLICANS OR EVANGELICALS.

IT HAS GIVEN HIM MORE FREEDOM OF ACTION.

WELL, LET'S WAIT AND SEE.

>> AS YOU AND I ARE SPEAKING NOW, THE PRESIDENT IS STILL IN THE REGION.

HE HAD THIS LAVISH WELCOME CEREMONY.

AND IS TOUTING HIS ABILITY TO MAKE DEALS.

A LOT OF THESE ARE ARMS DEALS.

IT IS ASSERTED THAT THERE WILL BE INVESTMENT DEALS FROM THE GULF STATES IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO, HOW DO YOU READ THAT?

>> TRUMP IS ALL ABOUT, HE IS A TRANSACTIONAL PERSON.

HE THINKS LIFE IS ABOUT LEVERAGE AND LEVERAGE COMES FROM HAVING MORE MONEY THAN THE OTHER GUY WHICH GIVES YOU MORE LEVERAGE TO GET MORE MONEY.

SO, I AM ALL FOR TRADE DEALS.

DISAPPOINTED THAT IT HAS TO BE ALL WEAPONS SYSTEMS.

WELL, THAT IS TRUMP.

WE HAVE HEARD THESE THINGS BEFORE, HOW MANY OF THEM ACTUALLY COME THROUGH.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, PRESIDENTS ARE NOT JUDGED BY HOW BIG THE ARMS THE SALES ARE THAT THEY MAKE TO THE MIDDLE EAST.

THEY ARE JUDGED BY THEIR ABILITY TO ADVANCE THE PEACE PROCESS THERE.

WHEN IT COMES TO TRUMP, THAT IS STILL TBD.

HIS WILLINGNESS TO THINK UNCONVENTIONALLY.

YOU KNOW, CAN BE A REAL ASSET HERE.

I'M NOT SURE, HE HAS THE PATIENCE OR INTEREST OR PEOPLE THE HARD WORK THE MORNING AFTER TO ACTUALLY CREATE A DIFFERENT REALITY IN THE REGION.

>> BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, YOUR ENDED YOUR COLUMN, CITES THE FACT THAT NINE CHILDREN WERE KILLED EARLIER IN THE WEEK.

BETWEEN THE AGES OF THREE AND 14.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAID THAT THE TARGET WAS A HAMAS TARGET CONTROL CENTER AND STEPS WERE TAKEN TO MITIGATE THE RISK OF HARMING UNINVOLVED CIVILIANS.

THEY GO ON TO SAY, WE CAN CONTINUE TO IGNORE THE NUMBER OF PALESTINIANS THAT HAVE BEEN KILLED, MORE THAN 52,000, AROUND 18,000 CHILDREN TO QUESTION THE CREDIBILITY OF THEIR FIGURES TO USE ALL OF THE MECHANISMS OF NORMALIZATION AND JUSTIFICATION .

NONE OF THIS WILL CHANGE THE BITTER FACT THAT ISRAEL KILLED THEM.

OUR HANDS DID THIS.

WE MUST NOT AVERT OUR EYES.

WE MUST WAKE UP AND CRY OUT LOUDLY, STOP THE WAR.

I WANTED TO HEAR MORE ABOUT WHETHER YOU THINK THAT SOMETHING IS CHANGING IN ISRAEL IF IT IS DIMINISHING?

>> THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT THERE IS A SORT OF SOLIDARITY THAT WAS APPARENT IN ISRAEL FOR THE FIRST YEAR OF THE WAR, HAS FRACTURED.

RESERVISTS ARE REFUSING TO WORK BECAUSE THERE IS A FEELING THAT ALL THE ARMY IS DOING NOW IS GOING AFTER HER SECOND TARGETS AND LEADERS AND JUST KILLING A LOT OF PEOPLE.

I THINK AS MUCH AS THAT HAD NOT GONE THROUGH EARLY ON, IT HAS GONE THROUGH TO AT LEAST PART OF THE ISRAELI POPULATION.

ENOUGH OF IT THAT THE MAJORITY IN ISRAEL NOW ARE VIEWED AS, STOP THE WAR, GIVE US OUR HOSTAGES BACK AND IF HAMAS WANTS TO RUN THE PLACE, LET THEM RUN IT.

YOU OBSERVE THE CABINET IN OPPOSITION OF THAT WHICH SAYS, WE WILL RESTART THE WAR.

RESTARTED IN A WAY WHERE WE HEARD ALL OF THE PALESTINIANS TO A QUADRANT OF THE GAZA STRIP AND WE WILL PERMANENTLY OCCUPY THE PLACE.

THE GOVERNMENT IS COMPLETELY AT ODDS WITH THE ISRAELI MAJORITY RIGHT NOW AND YOU CAN SEE THAT TENSION EVERY DAY THAT YOU PICK UP THE ISRAELI PAPERS.

THESE ARE ALL PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN TOO LONG AT WAR.

THERE IS BEEN A HUGE OUTCRY IN THE ARAB MUSLIM WORD ABOUT THE JEWISH CASUALTIES IN THE FIRST WEEK.

YOU KNOW, MY VIEW IS THAT THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE AWFUL THINGS TO EACH OTHER FOR WAY TOO LONG.

MY OWN PHILOSOPHY IN APPROACHING THIS WAR, I AM NOT HERE TO KEEP SCORE WHO IS AWFUL.

I'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR 50 YEARS.

I AM HERE TO FIGURE OUT A WAY OUT.

ALL OF MY THINKING IS DEVOTED TO FIGURING OUT HOW WE STOP THIS AND GET BACK TO TWO STATES FOR TWO PEOPLE.

THAT IS WHAT IS MOTIVATING ME FROM THE START AND TODAY.

>> TOM FRIEDMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

TO MY PLEASURE.

>>> FINALLY, UNDER RELATIONSHIP STRESS WITH THE UNITED STATES, EUROPE NEEDS A WARM AND FUZZY, EUROVISION, THE CONTEST THAT BRINGS EUROPE TOGETHER.

IT IS BACK.

THE FINALS KICKED OFF IN SWITZERLAND LAST NIGHT.

PERFORMERS FROM EVERYWHERE PUT ON THEIR BEST SHOW.

THE 10 ACTS THAT QUALIFIED FOR SATURDAY'S FINAL IS UKRAINE'S.

THE BAND, SONG BIRD OF PREY, ABOUT A TRAVELER SEEKING LIGHT AND HOPE SYMBOLIZING UKRAINIAN RESILIENCE AMID THE WAR.

HE MOVED CROWDS TO TEARS AND IN SOLIDARITY THERE WERE MANY UKRAINIAN FLAGS FLUTTERING IN THE AUDIENCE.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW