>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> TRUMP KICKS OFF HIS GULF STATES TOUR IN SAUDI ARABIA.

HE'S SET ON DEALMAKING, BUT WHAT ELSE IS ON THE AGENDA?

I ASK FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO EGYPT AND ISRAEL DANIEL KURTZER.

THEN -- I SPEAK TO FORMER FIREFIGHTER AND AUTHOR JORDAN THOMAS ABOUT FACING WILDFIRES UP CLOSE.

>>> AND -- >> THE HORROR OF WHAT HAPPENED TO KAREN IS NOW ECLIPSED BY HOW WONDERFUL SHE WAS.

AND THAT'S -- THAT'S A LOT OF FREEDOM.

>> ACTOR KELSEY GRAMMER TELLS MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT HIS NEW MEMOIR, ON THE LOVE AND LOSS OF HIS SISTER KAREN, WHO WAS BRUTALLY MURDERED 50 YEARS AGO.

ALSO AHEAD -- ♪ AS KAZUO ISHIGURO'S NEW NOVEL HEADS TO THE CANNES FILM FESTIVAL, WE REMEMBER CHRISTIANE'S CONVERSATION WITH THE NOBEL PRIZE-WINNING AUTHOR.

♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

U.S. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP IS IN SAUDI ARABIA, ROYALLY WELCOMED THIS MORNING BY CROWN PRINCE MA HALL MED MOHAMMED BI.

IT'S THE FIRST STOP ON TRUMP'S FIRST MAJOR FOREIGN TRIP SINCE RETURNING TO OFFICE.

AFTER RIYADH, HE'LL GO ON TO QATAR AND THE UAE.

ALL IN ALL, TRUMP HOPES TO SIGN AGREEMENTS WORTH $1 TRILLION.

SPEAKING AT THE INVESTMENT FORUM, THE PRESIDENT HAD THIS TO SAY -- >> THE U.S./SAUDI RELATIONSHIP HAS BEEN A BEDROCK OF SECURITY AND PROSPERITY.

TODAY, WE REAFFIRM THIS IMPORTANT BOND, AND WE TAKE THE NEXT STEPS TO MAKE OUR RELATIONSHIP CLOSER, STRONGER, AND MORE POWERFUL THAN EVER BEFORE.

IT IS MORE POWERFUL THAN EVER BEFORE.

AND, BY THE WAY, IT WILL REMAIN THAT WAY.

WE DON'T GO IN AND OUT LIKE OTHER PEOPLE.

>> DURING HIS SPEECH, HE ALSO ANNOUNCED PLANS TO LIFT U.S. SANCTIONS ON SYRIA'S NEW GOVERNMENT TO, QUOTE, GIVE THEM A CHANCE AT GREATNESS.

ABSENT FROM THIS MIDDLE EAST TRIP, THOUGH, IS ISRAEL.

ON MONDAY, THE U.S.

WENT AROUND ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU TO SECURE THE RELEASE OF EDAN ALEXANDER, THE FINAL LIVING AMERICAN HOSTAGE OUT OF GAZA.

IT APPEARS TO BE PART OF A LARGER PATTERN WITH AMERICA ALSO ENGAGING IN DIRECT TALKS WITH IRAN, INDIRECT TALKS WITH HAMAS, AND AGREEING TO A CEASE-FIRE DEAL WITH THE HOUTHIS IN YEMEN.

TO ASSESS THIS ALL, LET'S BRING IN DANIEL KURTZER, HE SERVED AS U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO BOTH EGYPT AND ISRAEL, AND FOR A LONG TIME, WAS A CENTRAL PLAYER IN THE MIDDLE EAST PROCESS.

MR.

AMBASSADOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, AND YOU COME WITH A LOT OF BREAKING NEWS, AS WE ARE JUST GETTING WORD THAT ISRAEL HAD TARGETED HAMAS LEADER MOHAMMED SINWAR, THE BROTHER OF YAHYA SINWAR WHO IS NOW THE DE FACTO LEADER OF HAMAS, AFTER HIS BROTHER WAS KILLED BY THE IDF LAST OCTOBER, THIS OCCURRING IN A STRIKE ON A HOSPITAL IN SOUTHERN GAZA TODAY.

ISRAEL SAYING THAT HAMAS WAS USING THIS HOSPITAL AS A COMMAND CENTER.

NO INDICATION AS TO WHETHER THEY ACTUALLY KILLED MOHAMMED SINWAR, BUT FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS STRIKE HAPPENING, OF COURSE, AS THE PRESIDENT IS IN THE REGION?

>> WELL, THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.

LOOK, TARGETED KILLINGS BY ISRAEL HAVE HAD THEIR UPS AND DOWNS.

ON THE ONE HAND, THEY'VE HAD GREAT SUCCESS IN DEBILITATING THEIR ENEMIES, WHETHER IT'S HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH, AND IN THEIR VIEW, KNOCKING OUT THE LEADERSHIP ALLOWS FOR PERHAPS THE EMERGENCE OF DIFFERENT LEADERSHIP THAT MIGHT HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, AS I HEARD WHEN I WAS STATIONED IN ISRAEL YEARS AGO, WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT NEW LEADERS MIGHT DO, ISRAEL ENTERS INTO AN UNKNOWN PROSPECT.

THEY KNEW YAHYA SINWAR, THEY HAD HAD HIM IN JAIL FOR MANY YEARS, THEY KNOW, OR KNEW MOHAMMED SINWAR.

WE DON'T KNOW NOW WHAT'S GOING TO EMERGE AND HOW RADICAL OR NOT THE NEW LEADERSHIP MAY BE.

>> WELL, THIS COULD BE INTER PRETTIED A NUMBER OF WAYS.

ONE IS PERHAPS THIS GIVES AN OUT TO PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, WHO HAS BEEN FACING IMMENSE PRESSURE FROM THE FAR RIGHT MEMBERS OF HIS COALITION FOR A RENEWED OFFENSIVE INSIDE OF GAZA, GOING DEEPER AND HARDER, EVEN THOUGH IT APPEARS THAT THERE IS MORE DAYLIGHT BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL, THAT THIS -- HIM ANNOUNCING THAT THEY HAD KILLED THE DE FACTO LEADER OF HAMAS, IF THAT DOES PROVE TO BE TRUE, COULD GIVE HIM SOME OPPORTUNITY FOR A CEASE-FIRE RIGHT NOW, AND DECLARE AT LEAST A SHORT-TERM VICTORY.

OR, PERHAPS, AS I WOULD IMAGINE SOME OF THESE HOSTAGE FAMILY MEMBERS ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT, WHAT THIS MEANS FOR FURTHER NEGOTIATIONS, AND A POSSIBLE CEASE-FIRE HOSTAGE RELEASE DEAL.

WHICH OPTION DO YOU THINK IS MORE LIKELY HERE?

>> I THINK NETANYAHU IS PENNED IN BY HIS COALITION.

ON THE ONE HAND, HE IS FEELING PRESSURE FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION NOT TO ENLARGE THE INVASION OR TO -- ANOTHER INCURSION INTO GAZA, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, HE HAS COALITION PARTNERS WHO ARE INSISTING THAT THIS WAR NOT COME TO AN END, AND SO, THE ASSASSINATION OF MOHAMMED SINWAR MAY ALLOW NETANYAHU TO CLAIM A SMALL VICTORY, BUT HE WILL FACE TREMENDOUS PRESSURE FROM THE EXTREMIST MEMBERS OF HIS COALITION TO CONTINUE UNTIL WHAT THEY CALL VICTORY, WHICH IS THE COMPLETE DEMOLISHING OF HAMAS IN GAZA.

>> STICKING TO THE PRESIDENT'S TRIP IN SAUDI ARABIA NOW, IT WAS INTERESTING TO HEAR HIM SAY HIMSELF THAT SAUDI ARABIA WILL EVENTUALLY JOIN THE ABRAHAM ACCORDING AND NORMALIZE RELATIONSHIPS WITH ISRAEL IN, QUOTE, ITS OWN TIME.

OBVIOUSLY, THIS HAD BEEN A PROCESS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD STARTED, AND IT APPEARED WAS QUITE NEAR COMPLETION UNTIL OCTOBER 7th OCCURRED, AND SINCE THEN, MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN HAS TAKEN A REAL DEFIANT TONE IN SAYING THAT THIS CANNOT BE COMPLETED, NORMALIZATION CANNOT HAPPEN UNTIL THE WAR IN GAZA COMES TO AN END, AND UNTIL THERE'S AT LEAST A PATHWAY TO A PALESTINIAN STATE.

SO, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE PRESIDENT EVEN RAISING THAT TODAY IN HIS SPEECH?

>> WELL, I THINK WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS DOING IS TRYING TO LOWER EXPECTATIONS.

EVERYONE HAS BEEN LOOKING AT THE PROSPECT OF SAUDI/ISRAELI NORMALIZATION NOW FOR SEVERAL YEARS.

WE KNOW AFTER OCTOBER 7th, THE SAUDI REQUIREMENTS OR DEMANDS WITH RESPECT TO A PALESTINIAN STATE INCREASED QUITE DRAMATICALLY.

WE KNOW THAT THOSE DEMANDS ARE PROBABLY TOO MUCH FOR NETANYAHU TO AGREE, AND SO, THE PRESIDENT, IN A SENSE, HAS BECOME REALISTIC ABOUT THE PROSPECTS OF NORMALIZATION, EVEN WHILE ENHANCING OUR RELATIONSHIP BILATERALLY WITH THE SAUDIS.

AND SO, IT'S A WAY OF SENDING A SIGNAL TO ISRAEL THAT IT'S NOT LIKELY THAT THEY'RE GOING TO GET NORMALIZATION, BUT ALSO TELLING THE SAUDIS THAT IT WILL REMAIN ON THE AGENDA OVER TIME, AND HOPEFULLY PROVE TO BE A POSSIBILITY AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE.

>> IN THE MEANTIME, THE REAL FOCUS HERE HASSEN BE HAS BEEN ON INVESTMENT BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND SAUDI ARABIA.

THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF A $600 BILLION INVESTMENT FROM SAUDI ARABIA IN THE UNITED STATES INCLUDING SOME $142 BILLION IN DEFENSE SALES.

THE PRESIDENT HAD BEEN HOPING FOR A $1 TRILLION, ANYTHING NORTH OF A TRILLION DOLLARS, I THINK HE JUST LIKES THE SOUND, AND THE SYMBOLISM OF A TRILLION DOLLAR DEAL, BUT SAUDI ARABIA, THOUGH OBVIOUSLY EXTREMELY WEALTHY RIGHT NOW AND LOOKING TO DIVERSIFY, FINDS ITSELF IN AN ECONOMICALLY SQUEEZED POSITION, AS WELL, AS OIL PRICES HAVE CONTINUED TO GO DOWN AND BS SAID HE HOPES TO GET TO $1 TRILLION.

BUT JUST TALK ABOUT THE DYNAMICS AT PLAY IN THIS TRIP RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, I THINK, AS WE SAW IN TRUMP'S FIRST ADMINISTRATION, THERE WERE A LOT OF ANNOUNCEMENTS AFTER HIS TRIP TO SAUDI ARABIA, BUT NOT MANY OF THEM WERE FULFILLED, AND WE MAY SEE THE SAME PATTERN HERE.

THE PRESIDENT WANTS TO COME HOME WITH A BAG FULL OF GOODIES, THE $600 BILLION, IF NOT MORE, OF INVESTMENT, A LARGE INVESTMENT IN A.I.

IN CALIFORNIA.

PROBABLY A TRUMP HOTEL IN SAUDI ARABIA, A TRUMP GOLF COURSE IN THE UAE.

HIS SON DEVELOPS SOME CRYPTO BUSINESS LAST WEEK IN A CONFERENCE IN THE GULF.

AND, OF COURSE, THERE'S THAT 747 AIR FORCE ONE GIFT FROM THE QATARIS, SO, THE PRESIDENT WANTS TO ANNOUNCE ALL OF THIS, AND IT WILL MAKE A LARGE SPLASH.

WHETHER OR NOT ANYTHING HAPPENS AS A RESULT OF IT WILL TAKE TIME, AND THEREFORE, IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT, IN TERMS OF THE PRESIDENT'S AGENDA.

WHAT'S MISSING FROM THIS AGENDA, HOWEVER, IS ANYTHING RELATED SO FAR, AT LEAST, TO THE PRIORITIES THAT HE'S ASSIGNED TO REACHING A DEAL ON GAZA TO END THE WAR.

THERE'S SOME RUMORS THAT HE MAY ANNOUNCE AN INITIATIVE, BUT THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT HE'S TALKED TO THE ISRAELIS ABOUT THIS, AND THEREFORE, THIS COULD BE ANOTHER SURPRISE THAT HITS THE ISRAELIS, IF AN ANNOUNCEMENT IS FORTHCOMING, WHILE THE PRESIDENT IS IN THE GULF.

>> AND NO WORD YET IN TERMS OF REPORTING ON OUR END AS TO WHETHER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS GIVEN A HEADS UP ABOUT THIS STRIKE TARGETING MOHAMMED SINWAR, AS WELL, WHILE HE IS IN THE REGION.

YOU MENTIONED THERE, YOU BRUSHED OVER WHAT IS NOT TYPICAL U.S. POLICY, AND THAT IS A CROSSING OF PERSONAL FINANCES AND U.S.

INTERESTS.

AND YET, THAT'S WHAT WE ARE SEEING PLAY OUT HERE DURING THIS VISIT, IN BROAD DAYLIGHT.

"THE NEW YORK TIMES" IS REPORTING THAT THE TRUMP FAMILY HAS SIX PENDING DEALS WITH SAUDI-OWNED REAL ESTATE FIRMS, THE CRYPTO DEAL.

THE UAE IS INVESTING IN A LUXURY VILLA, AS WELL, AND AS IS THE GOVERNMENT OF QATAR.

AND THEN, THERE'S THE $400 MILLION PLANE THAT THE QATARIS ARE EXPECTING TO GIFT PRESIDENT TRUMP, THAT WILL BE USED AS AIR FORCE ONE.

I MEAN, HOW UNUSUAL IS THIS, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, IN YOUR EXPERIENCE?

AND HOW DANGEROUS COULD THIS BE FOR NATIONAL SECURITY?

>> BIANNA, THIS IS NOTHING LESS THAN AN ETHICAL SWAMP.

AND IT'S GOING TO TAKE SIGNIFICANT ACTION BY CONGRESS TO PERSUADE THE PRESIDENT THAT THIS IS NOT THE DIRECTION HE SHOULD BE GOING.

LOOK, EVEN SOME OF HIS SUPPORTERS, BEN SHAPIRO, LAURA LOOMER, HAVE COME OUT AGAINST THE AIRPLANE, AND THERE'S BEEN PUSH-BACK ALSO ON THESE PRIVATE DEALS THAT ARE BENEFITING AND ENRICHING THE TRUMP FALL I WILL WHILE THE PRESIDENT IS -- IS IN OFFICE.

SO, WE'RE WATCHING A SIGNIFICANT DETERIORATION IN THE ETHICAL STANDARDS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO GOVERN OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS, AND, YOU KNOW, IT -- IT COULD GO FURTHER.

I CALL IT A SWAMP, IT COULD END UP BEING A -- AN ALMOST BOTTOMLESS PIT, THE WAY THIS PRESIDENT SEEMS TO CONFUSE OR TO PAPER OVER THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT'S DONE IN THE NATIONAL INTEREST AND HOW IT BENEFITS HIMSELF.

>> AND YET, THE PRESIDENT SAID MULTIPLE TIMES, JUST THIS WEEK, THAT YOU'D HAVE TO BE STUPID NOT TO ACCEPT A PLANE, A FREE LUXURY PLANE FROM QATAR TO USE AS AIR FORCE ONE.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT THE U.S. IS DELIVERING THE SAUDIS AS OPPOSED TO WHAT THEY ARE DELIVERING FOR THE UNITED STATES?

BECAUSE THESE INVESTMENTS ARE ONE THING, IT'S CLEAR THAT THE SAUDIS WANT SOMETHING MUCH MORE SIGNIFICANT, AND THAT IS A DEFENSE PACT WITH THE UNITED STATES, SPECIFICALLY -- AND HOPES A GREEN LIGHT FROM THE UNITED STATES FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF THEIR OWN NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

>> WELL, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT IF THE PRESIDENT PROMISES THOSE TWO SAUDI DEMANDS, IT WILL BE A BIG DEAL.

AND, IN FACT, THE SAUDIS WOULD CELEBRATE.

WHAT HE'S EXPECTING IN RETURN ARE LOWER OIL PRICES, WHICH, AS YOU NOTED EARLIER, THE SAUDIS ARE RUNNING INTO THEIR OWN ECONOMIC TROUBLE BECAUSE OF OIL PRICES.

AND HE'S ALSO LOOKING FOR STEADFAST SUPPORT FOR WHAT MAY EMERGE IN AN IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL.

YOU REMEMBER THAT WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS NEGOTIATING THAT DEAL, THE SAUDIS AND THE GULF STATES AND ISRAEL WERE VERY MUCH OPPOSED TO AMERICAN DIPLOMACY, AND IT MAY BE THAT THIS TIME, THE PRESIDENT WILL LAY DOWN THE LAW WITH THESE ALLIES AND SAY, I'M GOING TO DO THIS, WE'RE NOT SURE WHAT HE'S DOING, FRANKLY, DOESN'T SEEM TO BE MUCH OF A STRATEGY, BUT I THINK HE'S GOING TO EXPECT THESE COUNTRIES TO COME ONBOARD, EVEN IF THEY HAVE RESERVATIONS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF IRANIAN HEDGE MONIC ACTIVITIES IN THE REGION.

>> I'M JUST READING SOME OF HIS COMMENTS TODAY IN RIYADH AS IT PERTAINS TO THE IRAN TALKS, AND HE SAID, NOW IS TIME FOR IRAN TO CHOOSE HOW IT PROCEEDS, AS HE WARNED THAT IT CAN NEVER HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

THAT IS A CONSTANT REFRAIN THAT WE HEAR FROM THIS PRESIDENT, THIS ADMINISTRATION, BUT OBVIOUSLY IT'S THE DETAILS ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE THAT HAS MANY WORRIED, FIRST AND FOREMOST, ISRAEL, AND THAT IS WHAT THEY'RE ALLOWED TO PRODUCE AND ENRICH IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

DO YOU FORESEE A SCENARIO WHERE ENRICHMENT IS PERMITTED AS PART OF THIS DEAL INSIDE IRAN?

>> WELL, THIS IS WHAT WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT AMERICAN STRATEGY, IF THERE IS A STRATEGY.

WE'VE HEARD FROM THE AMERICAN NEGOTIATOR WITKOFF THAT IT MAY BE POSSIBLE FOR IRAN TO ENRICH URANIUM AT A LEVEL OF 3.67%, WHICH WAS ALLOWED UNDER THE JOINT COMPREHENSIVE PLAN OF ACTION.

AND THEN WE HEARD FROM OTHER OFFICIALS THAT ARE GOING TO REQUIRE COMPLETE DISMANTLEMENT OF THE PROGRAM.

AND I THINK THE ABSENCE OF CLARITY, BOTH IN PRIVATE AND PUBLIC, ARE HURTING OUR NEGOTIATING ABILITIES, IT'S HURTING OUR NEGOTIATING ABILITY.

YOU KNOW, IF WE DON'T ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING MORE THAN WHAT WAS IN THE JCPOA, WE WILL LOOK BACK WITH TREMENDOUS REGRET THAT IN 2018, THIS PRESIDENT PULLED US OUT OF THE JCPOA AND IRAN ENHANCED ITS PROGRAM IN THE MEANTIME.

IN AN OP-ED YESTERDAY, OR THE DAY FOR MORE, MORE FOR MORE.

THE PRESIDENT WILL OFFER IRAN MORE SANCTIONS RELIEF, BUT WILL DEMAND MORE ON NUCLEAR LIMITATIONS.

>> AND AS WE'VE HEARD FROM PERTS THEY WOULD BE JUST MONTHS AWAY.

THE PRESIDENT WILL MEET WITH THE LEADER OF SYRIA TOMORROW, AND ALSO REPORTED TO BE LIFTING U.S. SANCTIONS ON SYRIA, THERE HAD BEEN A LOT OF HOPE, PERHAPS, THAT THERE COULD BE MORE STABILITY AND PEACE IN THE COUNTRY, FOLLOWING THE OUSTER OF BASHAR AL ASSAD.

I'M CURIOUS TO GET YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

HAS THE NEW PRESIDENT SHOWN ENOUGH -- ENOUGH WILLINGNESS FOR THAT TO DESERVE TO HAVE SANCTIONS LIFTED?

>> WELL, WE KNOW THAT OUR PRESIDENT LIKES TO NEGOTIATE AT THE SUMMIT, AND I JUST HOPE HE'S PREPARED IN THAT MEETING TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MEETING AND WHAT EMERGES FROM THE MEETING.

AL SHARAA HAS TALKED THE TALK ABOUT PRESENTING A MORE MODERATE FACE, ABOUT NOT THREATENING ISRAEL, TRYING TO ESTABLISH UNITARY CONTROL OVER THE COUNTRY, BUT WE HAVEN'T SEEN A GREAT DEAL OF ACTION YET, OR SUCCESS.

AND THEREFORE, IT WOULD BE ABLE FOR THE PRESIDENT TO SAY TO AL SHARAA, LOOK, WE'RE PREPARED TO BEGIN REDUCING AND ULTIMATELY LIFTING SANCTIONS, BUT WE HAVE TO SEE PERFORMANCE.

AND THAT WOULD REQUIRE A KIND OF ACTION FOR ACTION SCENARIO, IN WHICH WE LAY OUT THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE FOR SYRIA AND FOR US, AND IN RETURN FOR THAT, THE UNITED STATES BEGINS TO REDUCE SANCTIONS.

>> ALL RIGHT, AMBASSADOR DANIEL KURTZER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE TIME AND EXPERTISE, APPRECIATE IT.

>> MY PLEASURE, THANK YOU.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO A WORRINGLY FAMILIAR STORY.

TINDERBOX CONDITIONS ARE SPARKING WILDFIRES ACROSS THE GLOBE.

IN AMERICA'S MIDWEST, SOME RESIDENTS ARE BEING EVACUATED, WITH LARGE AREAS ON HIGH ALERT.

IN THE UK, AN UNSEASONABLY DRY SPRING HAS LED TO FOREST BLAZES UP AND DOWN THE COUNTRY.

AROUND THE WORLD, WILDFIRES ARE BECOMING MORE FREQUENT AND INTENSE, AND MORE UNPREDICTABLE.

CALIFORNIANS KNOW THIS ALL TOO WELL, AS THEY STILL WORK TO REBUILD AFTER THE BRUTAL FIRES EARLIER THIS YEAR.

WELL, ONE MAN WHO HAS WITNESSED THOSE FIRES UP CLOSE IS JORDAN THOMAS.

WORKING FOR A SPECIAL WILDLAND FIRE FIGHTING UNIT IN CALIFORNIA, HIS NEW BOOK "WHEN IT ALL BURNS" TAKES READERS INSIDE ONE SIX-MONTH FIRE SEASON.

JORDAN JOINS ME NOW FROM BOSTON.

JORDAN THOMAS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

FIRST OF ALL, IN YOUR BOOK, YOU SHARE YOUR EXPERIENCE OF JOINING THE LOS PADRES HOT SHOTS, AND I HAVE TO SAY, MY ENTIRE TEAM AND I SAID WE HAVE NEVER HEARD OF A FIRE FIGHTING HOT SHOT.

CAN YOU EX PLAIN WHAT THAT IS?

>> YEAH, THEY GIVE YOU REALLY COOL JOB TITLES IN THE FOREST SERVICE.

THEY'RE LIKE THE SPECIAL FORCES, LIKE THE NAVY S.E.A.L.s OF WILDLAND FIRE FIGHTING.

IT'S DIFFERENT FROM URBAN FIRE FIGHTING, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT USING WATER.

IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT JOB FROM THE TYPICAL IDEA OF FIRE ENGINES AND DALMATIANS, BECAUSE YOU'RE DEEP IN THE WILDERNESS.

YOU OFTEN GET DROPPED OFF THERE BY HELICOPTERS, AND SO, WHAT YOU DO AS A WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER, YOU GO TO THE EDGE OF THE FLAMES WITH CHAIN SAWS AND YOU'RE CUTTING BRUSH AND VEGETATION AWAY TO CONTAIN THE FIRE, REALLY IN IN TENSE TERRAIN AND HEAT.

YOU HAVE TO NAVIGATE THE FIRES TO SURVIVE THEM.

>> YEAH, WE'RE LOOKING AT ACTUAL PICTURES OF YOU DURING ONE OF THESE FIRES.

CAN YOU TALK TO US ABOUT THE ACCIDENT WHERE YOU ACTUALLY FELL OFF A CLIFF DURING ONE OF THE FIRES?

>> THAT WAS DURING THE HEAT DOME ON THE WEST COAST THAT HAPPENED IN 2021, WHICH ACTUALLY KILLED MANY, MANY PEOPLE ACROSS THE WEST COAST.

AND THERE WAS A WILDFIRE IN CALIFORNIA AT THE TIME, THERE WERE ACTUALLY MULTIPLE, AND WE WERE ON ONE OF THEM, SO, IT WAS THE HOTTEST CONDITIONS EVER RECORDED IN THE AREA, AND IT WAS DURING SPRING, AND WE WERE TRYING TO CONTAIN THE FIRE, BECAUSE IT WAS BURNING TOWARDS A TOWN.

AND IT WAS, YOU KNOW, A FULL DAY OF CUTTING THROUGH BRUSH, TRYING TO GET AROUND THE FIRE, IN THE HOTTEST CONDITIONS EVER RECORDED IN THE AREA.

SO, IMAGINE IN OUR WATER THAT WE WERE USING TO STAY HYDRATED WAS THE TEMPERATURE OF THE SURROUNDING AIR, RIGHT?

IT WAS AROUND 120 DEGREES.

JACUZZI OR A HOT TUB IS LIKE 103 DEGREES.

SO, IMAGINE WATER SO UNCOMFORTABLY HOT THAT YOU WOULDN'T EVEN WANT TO SIT IN IT AND DRINKING THAT TO TRY TO STAY WARM -- OR DUMPING THAT ON YOUR HELD TO TRY TO COOL OFF.

IT'S -- IT'S -- WELL, THE DEVASTATION OF FIRES IN THESE CONTEXTS IS REALLY EXTREME, BECAUSE IT'S LIKE THROWING THE DRIEST WOOD YOU CAN IMAGINE ONTO A CAMPFIRE, IT JUST IGNITES.

AND IN THE PHYSICAL SENSATION OF TRYING TO NAVIGATE THAT, AND TRYING TO STAY SHARP ENOUGH TO STAY SAFE IN THOSE CONTEXTS, IS REALLY DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN.

AND IT'S REALLY PAINFUL.

BUT IT'S SOMETHING THAT WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS DEAL WITH, FRONT LINE COMMUNITIES AROUND THE WORLD DEAL WITH, AND ESSENTIAL WORKERS ALL OVER THE PLACE DEAL WITH, SO, IT'S JUST A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE OF REALLY THE REAL VIOLENCE OF CLIMATE CHANGE THAT'S INFLICTING ON PEOPLE THAT WE SHOULD BE VALUING IN SOCIETY AND VALUING MORE IN SOCIETY.

>> HOW MANY HOT SHOT FIREFIGHTERS ARE THERE RIGHT NOW?

AND I WOULD IMAGINE THAT DHAND DEMAND FOR FIREFIGHTERS LIKE YOURSELF HAS ONLY INCREASED WITH CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE SPIKE IN THE NUMBER OF WILDFIRES THAT WE'VE SEEN.

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, WE -- SO, TYPICALLY -- IT'S HARD TO TRACK ON A YEAR-BY-YEAR BASIS, BUT TYPICALLY, THERE'S AROUND 2,000 HOT SHOTS IN THE -- IN THE FOREST SERVICE, WHICH IS AROUND THE SAME AMOUNT OF PEOPLE IN THE NFL.

SO, IT'S -- IT'S A TOUGH JOB TO GET INTO.

THERE'S NOT VERY MANY PEOPLE, BUT THE JOBS ARE HARDER AND HARDER TO FILL, BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT VERY WELL COMPENSATED.

AND THERE'S NOT VERY GOOD HEALTH CARE FOR THESE PEOPLE LONG-TERM, WHEN THEY DEVELOP CHRONIC ILLNESSES.

SO, WHILE THE DEMAND IS INCREASING, AND THE NEED FOR THESE PEOPLE IS INCREASING, AS WILDFIRES BECOME MORE EXTREME BECAUSE OF CLIMATE CHANGE, IT'S ACTUALLY BECOMING HARDER AND HARDER TO FILL THESE SPOTS AND TO STAFF THESE CREWS.

AND THIS YEAR, THERE WAS A HIRING FREEZE INSTITUTED BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ACROSS THE FOREST SERVICE, INCLUDING WILDLAND FIRE FIGHTING, SO -- YES, THE DEMAND IS THERE, BUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE, TOO, TO SUPPORT THIS JOB IN A WAY THAT WILL BRING PEOPLE IN AND KEEP PEOPLE IN THE JOB, IS ACTUALLY DECREASING, WHICH IS -- MAKES THINGS QUITE DIFFICULT AND DANGEROUS AT A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT LEVELS.

>> AND OBVIOUSLY, CLIMATE CHANGE PREDATES BE MANY YEARS, MANY DECADES, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, BUT YOU NOTED ON THE MASSIVE CUTS FOR FEDERAL PROGRAMS LIKE THIS THAT HE'S ENACTED ALREADY IN THE EARLY MONTHS OF HIS SECOND TERM, CAN YOU JUST TALK ABOUT THE IMPACT, PERSONAL VIEWS ASIDE, THE IMPACT THAT WILL LIKELY HAVE ON WHAT WE CAN ASSUME WILL JUST BE THE EXPECTATION OF MORE OF THESE DANGEROUS DEADLY WILDFIRES IN THE MONTHS AND YEARS TO COME?

>> YEAH, SO, WITH THIS, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO KIND OF STEP BACK AND LOOK AT BROAD TRENDS, RIGHT?

SO, BECAUSE WILDFIRES, THEY VARY YEAR-BY-YEAR, BUT THE BROAD TRENDS ARE CLEAR.

18 OF THE 20 LARGEST FIRES IN CALIFORNIA'S RECORDED HISTORY HAVE BURNED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DECADES.

A RECENT ARTICLE IN THE SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL "SCIENCE" NOTED THAT FIRES ARE BURNING FOUR TIMES FASTER ON AVERAGE THAN THEY WERE JUST TWO DECADES AGO.

SO, THEY'RE GETTING MORE EXTREME, RIGHT?

JUST IN THE YEAR 2000, A WHOLE FIRE SEASON ACROSS THE AMERICAN WEST, IN WHICH A COUPLE HUNDRED THOUSANDS ACRES BURNED, WOULD HAVE BEEN EX TROOEM.

NOW, THERE'S MULTIPLE FIRES WITH THAT MANY ACRE AGE BURNING SIMULTANEOUSLY.

THE SOLUTIONS ARE RELATIVELY SIMPLE, ACTUALLY.

WE NEED TO PHASE OUT OF FOSSIL FUELS ON SCIENTIFIC TIMETABLES, FULL STOP.

THERE'S NO FOREST MANAGEMENT SOLUTION THAT WILL STOP UNLESS WE DO THAT.

AND THE OTHER ONE IS, WE NEED TO BE MANAGING OUR FORESTS.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

THAT MEANS RECOGNIZING WHERE THE FUNDING COMES FROM THAT.

AND IN CALIFORNIA, THAT'S MOSTLY -- MOST OF OUR LAND THAT'S BURNING IS FEDERAL LAND.

HALF OF CALIFORNIA IS FEDERAL LAND.

SO, THERE'S REALLY NO FOREST MANAGEMENT SOLUTION THAT DOESN'T COME FROM FEDERAL FUNDING.

NOW, SO, THE DIFFICULT PART OF THIS IS THAT WHILE BOTH OF THESE ARE CONTROLLED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS KNEECAPED OUR CLIMATE PROGRESS, AND THEY'VE ALSO GUTTED OUR FOREST MANAGEMENT INITIATIVES.

THE PEOPLE I KNOW WHO ARE IMPLEMENTING FOREST MANAGEMENT INITIATIVES IN THE FOREST AROUNDS WHERE I LIVE IN SANTA BARBARA, THEY'RE THE ONES WHO GOT FIRED BY THE SO-CALLED EFFICIENCY INITIATIVES.

AND, YOU KNOW, THESE WILDFIRES ARE NOT EFFICIENT, SO, I THINK THERE'S A HUGE DISCONNECT BETWEEN THE RHETORIC AND THE REALITY, AND A MASSIVE GAP, AN EVEN LARGER GAP FORMING BETWEEN WHAT WE KNOW WE NEED TO DO AND WHATer WE'RE ACTUALLY DOING.

>> THIS BOOK HAS RECEIVED A LOT OF PRAISE, NOT ONLY AS A CALL TO ACTION, BUT A HISTORY OF WILDFIRES THAT CAN HELP READERS BETTER UNDERSTAND HOW WE GOT THERE.

WE SPEND A LOT OF TIME, AND A LOT OF INTERVIEWS ON THIS SHOW FOCUSED ON CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT AS IT RELATES TO FIRES, YOU GO BACK IN HISTORY, SHOWING HOW INDIGENOUS PEOPLE CONTROLLED FIRES TOLL S TO GROW THEIR FOO THEIR WAY OF LIFE.

CAN YOU EX PLAIN HOW THAT DIFFERED FROM THE COLONIAL TECHNIQUES, WHICH YOU GO ON TO LATER CRITICIZE?

>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO ROOT OUR UNDERSTANDING OF CURRENT PROBLEMS IN AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE HISTORY THAT SHAPED THESE PROBLEMS, RIGHT?

SO, FRAMING THESE WILDFIRES AS NATURAL DISASTERS, WHAT THAT OFTEN DOES IS IT ERASES THE HISTORIES THAT HAVE CREATED THE CONTEXT OF THESE DISASTERS ARE OCCURRING IN, WHICH SHAPES THE PEOPLE THAT ARE IMPACTED BY THEM, RIGHT?

SO, CALIFORNIA IS ONE OF THE MOST FIRE ADAPT AND FIRE EVOLVED REGIONS ON EARTH.

THE MAJORITY OF CALIFORNIA'S ECOSYSTEMS NEED CERTAIN KINDS OF FIRE TO THRIVE.

AND FOR AROUND 10,000 YEARS, CALIFORNIA'S INDIGENOUS PEOPLE RECOGNIZED THAT, AND THEY WERE THE ONES LIGHTING MOST OF THE FIRES ACROSS CALIFORNIA.

IN VERY DIVERSE WAY.

WE THINK OF FIRE AS A SINGLE THING, RIGHT?

BUT WE WOULDN'T THINK OF PRECIPITATION AS A SINGLE THING.

THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT KINDS.

SO, TALKING ABOUT WHETHER PRECIPITATION IS GOOD OR BAD IS KIND OF MEANINGLESS.

SAME WITH FIRE, RIGHT?

SO, INDIGENOUS PEOPLE FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, WHAT THEY FIGURED OUT HOW TO DO IS PROVIDE THE RIGHT KINDS OF FIRE FOR THE RIGHT KINDS OF ECOSYSTEMS, AND BECAUSE THEY RELIED ON THESE ECOSYSTEMS AND THE USE OF FIRE TO MANAGE THEM, THE SUPPRESSION OF FIRE WAS ONE OF THE MAJOR TOOLS THAT COLONIAL GOVERNMENTS, FIRST THE SPANISH GOVERNMENT, AND THEN THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT, USED TO DOMINATE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.

SO, THE HISTORY OF THESE DISASTERS IS REALLY ROOTED IN THE OPPRESSION OF PEOPLE.

AND I THINK THAT THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND, AS WE START TALKING ABOUT HOW WE CAN IMPLEMENT SOLUTIONS, RIGHT?

BECAUSE HOW WE FRAME THE PROBLEM IS VERY CLOSELY TIED TO THE SOLUTIONS.

AND THIS IS -- AND THIS IS A MAJOR TOPIC IN CALIFORNIA, WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO BRING FOOD FIRE BACK TO THE LAND, WHICH IS REALLY WHAT WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FOREST MANAGEMENT.

IS, HOW CAN WE GIVE THE LAND THE FIRE IT NEEDS AGAIN AND WHO SHOULD HAVE A VOICE IN THIS PROCESS?

SO, THAT'S THE APPROACH THAT I TAKE TO HISTORY, IN MY BOOK.

>> THE L.A.

FIRES THAT WE SAW, THE DEVASTATION THAT ENSUED, WERE AN EXAMPLE OF HOW CLIMATE CHANGE IS EFFECTING WHAT'S NOW CALLED MEGAFIRES, AND YOU SPEND TIME IN YOUR BOOK WRITING ABOUT MEGAFIRES, AND YOU SAY THEY EMERGE FROM A SERIES OF FRACTURED RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN FIRE, THE LAND, OUR INSTITUTIONS, AND EACH OTHER.

IN THE FINAL MOMENTS THAT WE HAVE TOGETHER, CAN YOU EX PLAIN WHAT THAT MEANS?

>> WELL, I THINK THE L.A.

FIRES REALLY -- YOU KNOW, BEYOND EVEN HOW THEY STARTED, I THINK WHAT WAS AS IMPORTANT TO ME AND AS INTERESTING TO ME IS WHAT THEY REVEAL.

AND WHAT THESE DISASTERS REVEAL OFTEN IS THE FAULT LINES IN SOCIETY, WHICH HAVE EXISTED BEFORE THAT, BUT WHICH ARE JUST REALLY BROUGHT INTO STARK RELIEF IN THESE DISASTERS.

SO, THIS IS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF CLIMATE CHANGE, RIGHT?

IT WAS AT THE END OF ONE OF THE HOTTEST YEARS ON RECORD.

DURING A TIME WHICH THE VEGETATION SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FLAMABLE, AND YOU'VE GOT THE PERFECT CONFLUENCE OF FACTORS THAT CREATED THE PERFECT STORM OF FIRE, RIGHT?

BUT WHO IS EX POSED TO THAT?

WHO IS MOST VULNERABLE TO THAT?

THE PEOPLE WITHOUT INSURANCE, UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE WHO ARE IN -- WHO ARE LIVING IN AND AROUND SOME OF THE MOST EXPENSIVE HOMES THAT BURNED THAT DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO FEDERAL MONEY.

INCARCERATED FIRE FIGHTERS WHO OFTEN DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE AND SUFFER FROM CHRONIC DISEASES DUE TO THE WORK AFTERWARDS.

AND ALSO, WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS WHO WORK FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WHO OFTEN DON'T HAVE ACT SETSZ TO LONG-TERM HEALTH CARE THROUGH THIS.

SO, BEYOND THAT, JUST STEPPING BACK, AGAIN, I THINK ONE THING THAT THIS REVEALS IS JUST THE WAY THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS REALLY JUST CROSSING THE LINES THAT WE THINK OF, THAT WE TAKE FOR GRANTED, RIGHT?

THIS FIRE -- THESE FIRES THAT START ON FEDERAL LAND OUT IN THE FORESTS BURN THROUGH OUR CITIES, AND THEY REALLY BRING INTO STARK RELIEF THE INEQUITIES IN OUR SOCIETY, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THESE DISASTERS REALLY -- THEY'RE SHAPED BY OUR HISTORIES AND THEY DON'T IMPACT EVERYBODY EQUALLY, RIGHT?

SO, I THINK THAT THAT'S AN IMPORTANT PART THAT TRY TO KEEP IN MIND, AND THAT'S WHEN I TALK ABOUT THE FRACTURED RELATIONSHIPS THAT BOTH GIVE RISE TO AND ARE EX POSED BY THESE DISASTERS, THAT'S WHAT I'M SPEAKING ABOUT.

>> JORDAN THOMAS, THE BOOK IS CALLED "WHEN IT ALL BURNS."

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> APPRECIATE IT.

>>> SINCE LAUNCHING TO FAME FLU POPULAR AMERICAN SITCOMS, AWARD-WINNING ACTOR KELSEY GRAMMER HAS BUILT A CELEBRATED CAREER.

BUT BEHIND THE SCENES, THE STAR HAS SUFFERED SOME GREAT PERSONAL LOSSES.

INCLUDING THE RAPE AND MURDER OF HIS BELOVED YOUNGER SISTER, KAREN.

GRAMMER SPEAKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT HIS MEMOIR, LAYING BEAR HIS JOURNEY OF HEALING HIS PAIN AND TRAUMA.

AND JUST TO NOTE, THIS CONVERSATION CONTAINS SOME GRAPHIC DETAILS.

>> THANKS, BIANNA.

KELSEY GRAMMER, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S WONDERFUL TO MEET YOU AS YOURSELF.

SO MANY PEOPLE PROBABLY THINK THEY KNOW YOU, YOU WERE ON THE AIR FOR SO LONG AS DR. FRASIER CRANE, ONE OF THE LONGEST RUNNING CHARACTERS, IF NOT THE LONGEST RUNNING CHARACTER IN TELEVISION HISTORY.

SO MANY AWARDS, SO MANY ACCOLADES.

SO, I WAS JUST WONDERING WHAT THAT MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE FOR YOU, FOR SO MANY PEOPLE TO THINK THEY KNOW YOU, BUT THEY COULDN'T POSSIBLY KNOW YOU, BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE KNOWN WHAT YOU WERE CARRYING WITH YOU.

>> MICHEL, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

THANK YOU.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, I UNDERSTAND -- THERE'S GREAT VALUE IN IT, AND GREAT REWARD IN IT, THAT PEOPLE ARE SO FAMILIAR WITH YOU, ON A -- YOU KNOW, AT LEAST ON A PRESENTATIONAL LEVEL.

THEY THINK THEY RECOGNIZE YOU, BECAUSE, OF COURSE, WHAT THEY'RE SEEING ON TELEVISION IS SOME SEMBLANCE OF YOU, SOME REALITY.

YOU'RE NOT VERY GOOD AT THIS STUFF UNLESS YOU'VE CONNECTED TO A KIND OF A TRUTHFUL CHARACTERIZATION THAT PEOPLE CAN RECOGNIZE.

SO, THAT, THEY RECOGNIZE, AND THAT THEN BREEDS FAMILIARITY THAT'S NOT CONTEMPT, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY JUST A SORT OF GRACIOUS AND -- AND GENEROUS TOWARDS YOU.

BUT THEY DON'T KNOW THE SPECIFICS.

THEY JUST HAVE A GOOD FEELING.

SO, THEY FEEL LIKE YOU'VE BEEN IN THEIR LIVING ROOM FOR SO LONG, YOU'RE A FRIEND.

>> OH, THAT'S -- I SEE YOUR POINT.

SO, IT'S A GIFT, IT'S MORE OF A GIFT THAN A BURDEN?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> IT IS, OKAY.

THIS BOOK IS -- IT'S -- IT'S CALLED "KAREN."

IT'S ABOUT YOUR SISTER AND IT'S ABOUT THE WAY SHE DIED, BUT IT'S ALSO ABOUT WHO SHE WAS AND WHO SHE WAS TO YOU.

SO, COULD WE JUST START THERE, LIKE, WHO WAS SHE TO YOU?

>> SHE WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF MY LIFE.

SHE WAS MY GREATEST LOVE.

I MEAN, UNTIL, YOU KNOW, OF COURSE, I GOT OLDER AND, YOU KNOW, REDEDICATED MY AFFECTIONS TO ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.

OUTSIDE OF THAT RELATIONSHIP, MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY SISTER, IT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY CLOSENESS WE HAD.

WE HAD SUCH A MAGNIFICENT SORT OF CHILDHOOD, ADOLESCENCE TOGETHER, YOUNG ADULTHOOD TOGETHER, THAT WAS REMARKABLE.

>> I GUESS WHAT I TOOK FROM THE BOOK WAS THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO KIND OF LET HER KNOW HOW IMPORTANT SHE WAS TO YOU.

SHE WAS TAKEN FROM YOU IN AN AWFUL, AWFUL WAY, AND, I MEAN, IT'S JUST -- YOUR DESCRIPTION OF IT IS HORRIFIC.

YOU WENT BACK AND ACTUALLY READ THE POLICE REPORT.

AND YOU WENT BACK TO THE PLACE WHERE SHE WAS ABDUCTED FROM BEFORE SHE WAS KIDNAPPED AND RAPED AND MURDERED.

AND I JUST -- AND YOU LIVED WITH THIS FOR A LONG TIME.

I WAS WONDERING, WHAT MADE THIS THE RIGHT TIME TO WRITE THIS BOOK, AND TO EXPLORE ALL THE COMPLEXITY OF THAT?

WHY NOW?

>> EAH, THERE'S A QUOTATION IN THE BOOK IN SEVERAL PLACES, I REFER TO THE MLET LINE, THE READINESS IS ALL.

I WASN'T READY.

FOR WHATEVER REASON, IT JUST -- IT DIDN'T PRESENT ITSELF TO ME AS SOMETHING I SHOULD OR COULD DO, AND THEN THE SIMPLE REQUEST TO TELL KAREN'S STORY TURNED INTO A BOOK.

I JUST JOTTED DOWN SOME NOTES, THREE YEARS AGO, MAYBE A LITTLE MORE THAN THREE YEARS NOW, AND REALIZED ABOUT EIGHT PAGES IN THAT I WAS GOING TO BE WRITING A BOOK, AND IT NEEDED TO BE RESPONSIBLE AND HONEST AND UNCOVER EVERYTHING I COULD POSSIBLY THINK OF.

THAT'S WHY THE POLICE REPORT BECAME IMPORTANT.

IT'S ALSO WHY IT BECAME IMPORTANT TO GO BACK AND TRACE HER STEPS, BECAUSE I WASN'T THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED.

AND THE BROTHER IN ME -- THE BROTHER IN ME HAD TO GO.

BECAUSE I COULDN'T BEFORE.

AND -- THAT'S WHO I AM.

I NEEDED TO SEE HER, I NEEDED TO SEE WHERE SHE DIED, I NEEDED TO HOLD HER IN MY CREATIVE IMAGINATION, AND SEE HER OFF IN SOME WAY.

AND THE BOOK WAS -- THE BOOK SUCCEEDED IN DOING THAT, AS WELL.

>> I CAN SEE THAT YOU LIVE WITH THAT GUILT FOR A LONG TIME, IN NOT BEING ABLE TO PROTECT HER.

>> YEAH.

>> AND I -- I AM SURE THAT SOME LISTENING TO THIS CONVERSATION, BE THEY MEN OR WOMEN, BUT I CAN PARTICULARLY UNDERSTAND AS A BROTHER WHY YOU WOULD FEEL THAT WAY.

>> OLDER BROTHER, OLDER SISTER, YOU LOOK AT YOUR SIBLINGS AS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, YOU KNOW?

YOU JUST -- IF YOU ARE A HUMAN, YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE -- THAT SORT OF JUST COMES ALONG FOR THE RIDE, SO -- YEAH.

>> HOW DO YOU THINK LIVING WITH THIS LOSS INFLUENCED YOUR -- YOUR TRAJECTORY AS AN ARTIST?

>> INTERESTING, YEAH.

IT PROBABLY ENCOURAGED ME TO TAKE RISKS.

TO NOT SUFFER FOOLS A LOT, YOU KNOW?

I'M A VERY KIND MAN, I MEAN, BUT EVENTUALLY, I'LL ROLL MY EYES AND SAY, I GOT TO GET OUT OF HERE, YOU KNOW, I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS, BUT -- MOST OF THE TIME, I'M A VERY PATIENT MAN, BUT WITH -- WITH A FOCUS ON GETTING THE JOB DONE.

I LIKE TO GET IN IN THE MIDDLE OF THINGS, I LIKE TO GET INTO THE FRAY, I LIKE TO FIGHT IT OUT.

THAT PROBABLY IS WHAT I WAS GIVEN BY VIRTUE OF LOSING KAREN, IN A LOT OF WAYS, IS THIS -- I'M NOT GOING TO STE THIS LIFE.

>> I JUST WANT TO SAY HERE THAT I'M REALLY SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> IT'S JUST -- SUCH A PROFOUND THING, AND ANY -- HAVING JUST EXPERIENCED THAT IN ONE LOSS, BUT YOU'VE HAD MANY.

I MEAN, YOUR FATHER WAS MURDERED.

AND THEN LATER, YOU KNOW, YOU LOST OTHER SIBLINGS IN A DIVING ACCIDENT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE NOTICED ABOUT LOSS IS THAT IT BRINGS YOU INTO CONNECTION WITH OTHER PEOPLE WHO'VE HAD LOSS.

BUT YOU CAN ALSO SEE IT WHERE A PERSON MIGHT NOT WANT TO FEEL THOSE THINGS ANYMORE.

>> YEAH.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT THINK, YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD BE GREAT, I COULD BE AN ACCOUNTANT AND DO PEOPLE'S TAXES.

>> FEELING FOR ME IS ONE OF THOSE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO.

IT'S JUST -- IT'S -- IT WAS KIND OF WHO I WAS BEFORE KAREN DIED.

SO, YOU KNOW, I DISCOVERED THIS, BUT THAT WAS BECAUSE OF THE LOSS OF MY GRANDFATHER, THAT WAS DOCTOR WHEN -- WHEN GORDON DIED, THE WHOLE WORLD ENDED, AS FAR AS I WAS CONCERNED, AND I HAD TO REBUILD ONE, AND WE KIND OF HAD TO DO THAT TOGETHER.

AND SO, I FOUND THAT EMOTIONAL OUTLET, AND REALIZED THAT THAT WAS PROBABLY THE PATH TO MY SUCCESS AND MY FREEDOM IN A LOT OF WAYS, WAS TO LIVE IN EMOTION, TO -- COULD I HAVE DONE WITHOUT THIS ONE?

YEAH.

BECAUSE I ALSO BELIEVE THAT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE A GOOD ACTOR, YOU -- YOU DIVE INTO THE CREATIVE SORT OF IMAGINATION OF A SITUATION, AND THAT RESPONSE IS PROBABLY JUST AS HONEST AS IF YOU REALLY LIVED IT.

BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT A GREAT IMAGINATION.

AND JUST AS HAS EQUAL AUTHORITY TO SOMEONE WHO HAS ACTUALLY BEEN THROUGH THAT.

SO, YOU CAN LOAN YOUR IMAGINATION TO A CHARACTER AND BE JUST AS AUTHENTIC AS IF YOU LIVED IT.

>> FAMILY IS OBVIOUSLY SO IMPORTANT TO YOU, TO PLAY THE SAME CHARACTER FOR SO MANY YEARS, OVER TWO DIFFERENT SHOWS.

AND I'M WONDERING, IN A WAY, DID THAT BECOME KIND OF PART OF A FAMILY?

>> IT DID.

IT DID.

THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION, I MEAN, I DIDN'T EXACTLY KNOW MY DAD, SO HAVING AN 11-YEAR RELATIONSHIP WITH JOHN MAHONEY HAS MY FATHER WAS MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY FATHER.

I MEAN, I DIDN'T REALLY HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH MY BROTHERS, THEY WERE HALF BROTHERS, MY RELATIONSHIP WITH DAVID HYDE PIERCE WAS MY BROTHER RELATIONSHIP.

AND THAT WAS A WONDERFUL THING TO GET THROUGH THE EXPERIENCE OF THE WORK.

THAT WAS A VERY GOOD THING FOR ME, AND WE DIVE INTO THESE EXPERIENCES AND BASICALLY LIVE THEM, YOU KNOW?

BY ALLOWING OURSELVES TO.

>> BUT YOU WERE ALSO IN A LOT OF PAIN WHILE YOU WERE HAVING THAT OTHER EXPERIENCE.

I MEAN, YOU'RE VERY HONEST ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK, AND I THINK YOU HAVE BEEN ALSO ELSEWHERE, YOU WERE DEALING WITH SOME SERIOUS ADDICTION DURING A PERIOD OF THAT TIME, AND JUST HEARING YOU -- READING YOU SORT OF DESCRIBE, LIKE, HOW YOU WERE ABLE TO KIND OF FUNCTION, EVEN AT THE DEPTHS OF THAT IS, LIKE, I FOUND MYSELF WONDERING, LIKE, HOW ARE YOU STILL HERE?

>> WELL, IT'S A QUESTION THAT COMES UP WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE.

AND IT PROBABLY GOES BACK TO THAT THING WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE, YOU JUST -- YOU JUST DON'T GET TO QUIT, BECAUSE, I MEAN, I FEEL LIKE IT WOULD BE KIND OF AN INSULT TO MY SISTER, THE LIFE THAT WAS TAKEN FROM HER, TO NOT LIVE THIS LIFE FULLY.

THAT'S ALL, YOU KNOW?

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK FINALLY HELPED YOU TO CLOSE THAT CHAPTER?

>> YEAH.

SOME OF IT WAS JUST A SURRENDER TO THE IDEA THAT, WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT, STAY IN THIS, AND WALK THIS PATH, AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

I WASN'T -- I WASN'T ACTUALLY DETERMINING THAT I WAS GOING TO EXPECT A CERTAIN RESULT, BUT IT WAS WORTH THE JOURNEY, AND STAYING ON IT WAS MORE IMPORTANT THAN STEPPING OFF.

AND THEN I HAD THE -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED -- IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN MY HEART ATTACK, HONESTLY, WHERE I JUST SUDDENLY THOUGHT -- BECAUSE I WASN'T PRACTICING ANYTHING THEN, I WASN'T ABUSING ANYTHING AT THE TIME, I MAY HAVE BEEN WORKING OUT TOO HARD THAT DAY, BUT -- THAT WAS THE ONE THAT SAID, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?

YOU WANT TO STAY IN THIS AND FEEL THIS WAY, OR DO YOU WANT TO GET OUT AND FEEL SOMETHING ELSE?

AND SO, I GOT OUT AND FELT SOMETHING ELSE, AND I FOUND LOVE AND A NEW FAMILY AND IT WOULD NEVER MAKE ME -- I WOULD NEVER WANT TO HURT MY CHILDREN FROM PREVIOUS RELATIONSHIPS BY SAYING, YOU KNOW, I FOUND SOMETHING THAT I DIDN'T HAVE THERE, BUT IT JUST BECAME DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW?

AND IT BECAME WORTH LIVING FOR.

>> OH, THAT'S LOVELY.

I DO WANT TO ASK YOU IF YOU -- IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING FROM THE BOOK THAT ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO KILLED KAREN IS STILL ALIVE AND IS -- HAS BEEN UP FOR PAROLE A NUMBER OF TIMES.

>> YES.

>> CAN YOU FORESEE THAT?

THIS PERSON -- >> I DO.

I OFTEN PUT MYSELF IN THAT, THE CHARACTERIZATION OF WHAT -- THERE'S A BASIC HUMAN IMPULSE THESE DAYS.

I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE IT'S POLITICAL, MAYBE IT'S NOT, MAYBE IT'S JUST -- BUT THERE IS A THING, LIKE THE ACCUSED, THE CRIMINAL, IS FAVORED.

OKAY, THAT COULD HAPPEN.

THAT COULD HAPPEN.

IT'S A DEVASTATING THING TO THINK ABOUT.

BUT I HAVE TO BE ABLE TO COME TO TERMS WITH IT, IF IT'S SOMETHING THAT DOES HAPPEN, BECAUSE I KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, OUR SOCIETY HAS GOTTEN TO A PLACE WHERE IT MIGHT BE THAT THEY ACTUALLY FEEL SORRY FOR HIM.

AND -- OKAY.

I MEAN, I KIND OF GET IT.

>> BUT DO YOU FEEL THAT THE PERSON WHO KILLED YOUR SISTER HAS REMORSE?

>> HE HAS SAID SO.

AND THAT WOULD MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE, BUT THEN, HE ALSO AT THE SAME TIME, IN THE LAST PAROLE HEARING, HE ACTUALLY SAID HE DIDN'T THINK HE RAPED HER, HE DIDN'T REMEMBER RAPING HER, HE DIDN'T THINK HE HAD DONE THAT.

>> OH, MY.

>> SO, IT WAS BLINDINGLY SUDDENLY USEFUL TO ME THAT I HAD READ THE POLICE REPORT AT THAT TIME, AND ONE OF THE WITNESSES SAID HE, HIS WORDS, THE LAST WORLDS KAREN EVER HEARD WERE, TILT YOUR HEAD BACK.

AND I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW WHAT?

I GOT AMMUNITION.

THAT'S AMMUNITION.

AND I'D NEVER HEARD THAT PHRASE BEFORE, IT WAS PART OF ONE OF THE KILLER'S STATEMENTS THAT TURNED STATE'S EVIDENCE, BUT IT WAS -- IT WAS SUCH A SHOCK TO ME TO HEAR IT MYSELF, AND THEN TO REALIZE THAT I USED IT MYSELF TO KEEP HIM IN JAIL.

SO, IT WAS A POWER, IN A LOT OF WAYS.

>> IN THE BOOK, YOU WRITE TO FREDDY GLEN, WHO IS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO KILLED YOUR SISTER, AND YOU SAY, WE SHARE A PRISON, FREDDY.

A PRISON YOU MADE.

OUR PRISON.

IT NEED NOT BE KAREN.

SHE IS FREE.

YOU AND I MAY SHARE IT FOREVER, BUT NOW, TELLING HER STORY RELEASES ME.

THAT IS A VERY BEAUTIFUL PASSAGE, BUT DO YOU FEEL RELEASED?

>> YEAH.

YEAH, IT MADE ME REALIZE THAT I KNOW LONGER HAVE TO OCCUPY THE PRISON THAT I HAD BUILT AS A RESULT OF THE ONE HE HAD BUILT.

AND IN -- IN MY IMAGINATION, HIS IS ONE HE CAN REMAIN IN, AND MINE, I DON'T HAVE TO ANYMORE.

THE WALLS -- THE WALLS HAVE BEEN KNOCKED DOWN, THEY'VE OPENED UP.

IT'S ALL -- IT'S ALL IN THAT -- THAT PLACE OF FREEDOM YOU FIND WHEN THE CHARGE IS TAKEN OFF OF SOMETHING.

BUT THE GRIEF WILL NEVER ACTUALLY DISAPPEAR.

BUT THE HORROR OF WHAT HAPPENED TO KAREN IS NOW ECLIPSED BY HOW WONDERFUL SHE WAS.

AND THAT'S -- THAT'S A LOT OF FREEDOM.

>> WOW.

DO YOU HAVE SOMEONE IN MIND THAT YOU HOPE WILL FIND THIS BOOK?

>> YEAH, ANYONE WHO SUFFERED A SIMILAR KIND OF EVENT, ANYONE WHO HAS LOST -- ANY HUMAN BEING, WE HEAR ABOUT THEM EVERY DAY, SOMEONE'S LOST THEIR CHILD.

YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S JUST -- IT'S REMARKABLE, THE PAIN, YOU KNOW, I CAN IMAGINE, BUT THE IDEA IS, IF THERE'S ANYTHING I CAN DO TO HELP YOU, IF THERE'S ANYTHING.

IF THIS BOOK CAN BRING YOUR GRIEF, WHICH IS GOING TO BE CONSTANT, FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, AND HARD AND, LIKE A COMPANION YOU REALLY WISH YOU DIDN'T HAVE, IF I CAN GIVE YOU ANYTHING THAT WILL SQUARE THE GRIEF TO THE JOY THAT YOU GOT FROM KNOWING THAT PERSON, AT LEAST SQUARE IT UP, MAYBE -- MAYBE IT GOES A LITTLE ADVANTAGE TOWARD THE JOY, BUT IF YOU CAN GET TO SQUARE, THEN I DID MY JOB.

>> WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH ME.

TO THE DEGREE THAT YOU CAN EVEN ENVISION THAT, WHAT MIGHT BE NEXT?

I MEAN, YOU'VE ALREADY LIVED SO MANY LIVES, I MEAN, THE FACT IS -- >> FASCINATING, YEAH.

>> THIS INCREDIBLE TV CHARACTER WHO WILL LIVE WITH US FOREVER.

>> RIGHT.

>> YOU KNOW, AS LONG AS -- >> AS LONG AS TELEVISION IS STILL ON.

>> WHOLE NEW GENERATION IS DISCOVERING YOUR WORK IN THAT REALM, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, AND THEN NOW.

WHAT MIGHT BE NEXT?

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT?

>> WELL, I'VE GOT THIS -- I'VE GOT IN NEW VERSION OF "FRASIER," WHICH IS KIND OF ON THE BUBBLE, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE INTERESTED IN SEEING IT CONTINUE, WHERE IT WOULD BE THE FIRST TIME A CHARACTER HAS ACTUALLY BEEN IN THREE MAJOR SHOWS FOR THE DURATION OF THE SHOW, THE GROWTH PERIOD FOR THE CHARACTER.

RIGHT NOW, THE THIRD ONE IS JUST -- IT'S KIND OF LIKE A ING SHOW, THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE INTERESTED IN SEEING IT GO FURTHER.

THAT WOULD BE FASCINATING TO ME, BECAUSE THE MATURATION OF THIS CHARACTER, YOU KNOW, MATCHES MY OWN, WHICH HAS KIND OF BEEN FASCINATING, TO FINALLY BECOME A GREAT DAD.

THAT'S SORT OF WHERE FRASIER IS HEADED, SO -- THAT'S WHERE I'M HEADED, HOPEFULLY.

I MEAN, THERE'S MORE WRITING TO DO, NOW THAT I'VE DISCOVERED THIS.

THERE WAS STUFF I DIDN'T INCLUDE IN THE BOOK, BECAUSE IT WASN'T REALLY CONNECTED TO KAREN.

AND I THOUGHT THE THINGS THAT WERE SORT OF CONTEXT YULE AND MAYBE SIGNIFICANT FOR MY GROWTH AND HER GROWTH AT THE SAME TIME, THAT'S WHAT I WANTED TO PUT IN THE BOOK, AND THEN THE SURVIVAL PART OF IT, YEAH, BUT -- THIS IS KAREN'S LOW KAREN'S, TO BRING HER BACK INTO MEMBERSHIP WITH THIS COMMUNITY, WITH THE WORLD, AND, YOU KNOW, THIS PLANE, AND I THINK I'VE SUCCEEDED IN THAT, AND I KNOW THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I GOT WAS ONE OF MY FIRST FRIENDS READ THROUGH THE FIRST DRAFT AND SAID, WOW, I THINK I KNOW YOUR SISTER.

>> WOW.

>> AND THAT'S -- THAT'S WHAT IT WAS ABOUT.

>> KELSEY GRAMMER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUFF.

>> A BEAUTIFUL MESSAGE ABOUT THE POWER OF ART TO SET US FREE.

>>> AND FINALLY, FOR US, THE RED CAR PELT HAS BEEN ROLLED OUT, THE TOP TIER OF THE CINEMATIC WORLD ARE TOUCHING DOWN IN THE FRENCH RIVIERA.

CANNES FILM FESTIVAL HAS BEGUN.

AMONG THE FILMS PREMIERING THIS YEAR, AN ADAPTATION OF THE FIRST NOVEL OF KAZUOISH GUR ARE.

THAT FOLLOWS A JAPANESE FAMILY THAT MOVE FROM POST-WAR NAGASAKI TO SUBURBAN ENGLAND.

BACK IN 2021, AFTER THE PUBLICATION OF HIS MOST RECENT NOVEL "KLARA AND THE SUN," HE SPOKE TO CHRISTIANE ABOUT THE POWERFUL INFLUENCE OF FAMILY ON ART.

>> LET ME TALK ABOUT YOUR HUMAN FAMILY, BECAUSE THIS BOOK, AND AGAIN, I'LL READ, IS IN MEMORY OF MY MOTHER, WHO SHE DIED IN 2019, SHE WAS 92 YEARS OLD, I THINK, AND SHE WAS THE FIRST PERSON THAT YOU CALLED WHEN YOU WERE TOLD THAT YOU WON THE NOBEL PRIZE.

AND SHE WAS VERY IMPORTANT IN YOUR LIFE, IN TERMS OF LEADING YOU TO BOOKS AND LITERATURE.

TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE YOUR EARLY YEARS, I THINK, WERE IN JAPAN, RIGHT?

>> YES, I CAME FROM JAPAN TO BRITAIN AT THE AGE OF 5.

NO INTENTION ON THE PART OF THE FAMILY TO SETTLE PERMANENTLY.

WE WERE ALWAYS PREPARING TO GO BACK, SO, YOU KNOW, I REMAINED QUITE JAPANESE WITHIN THE HOME, BUT BECAME RAPIDLY BRITISH OUTSIDE OF IT.

AND LIKE A LOT OF BOYS, WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER, I DIDN'T DO VERY MUCH READING, I WAS -- I WAS VERY KEEN ON LISTENING TO MUSIC AND PLAYING MUSIC, AND -- BUT MY MOTHER WAS A NATURAL STORYTELLER, SHE WASN'T A LITERARY PERSON, BUT SHE WAS A NATURAL STORYTELLER, AND SHE WOULD SPONTANEOUSLY TELL STORIES, EITHER ABOUT HER OWN EXPERIENCES IN JAPAN, OR HER GROWING UP.

OR, INDEED, SHE WOULD ACT OUT, YOU KNOW, SCENES FROM BOOKS OR SHAKESPEARE PLAYS.

AND SHE INTRODUCED ME -- SHE WAS THE PERSON THAT INTRODUCED ME TO DOS YEF SKI FOR THE FIRST TIME WHEN I WAS ABOUT 16 OR 17.

I DIDN'T REALLY WANT TO READ A GLOOMY LOOKING BOOK ABOUT RUSSIANS, BUT SHE PERSUADED ME, IT WAS ACTUALLY ABOUT A STUDENT THAT WAS GOING OUT OF HIS MIND, AND I THOUGHT THAT SOUNDED MUCH SEXIER, MUCH MORE INTERESTING.

AND DOS YEF SKI HAS REMAINED PROBABLY THE -- MY FAVORITE AUTHOR, YOU KNOW, AND SHE'S INTRODUCED ME TO MANY PEOPLE.

SO, I WOULD SAY, SHE'S VERY IMPORTANT, BUT SHE -- SHE PROBABLY S "KLARA AND THE SUN" IN ANOTHER WAY.

I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT MANY MOTHERS, MANY PARENTS OF BOTH SEXES, THAT -- THAT REMINDS ME OF KIND OF LIKE A PROGRAMMED ROBOT, WHEN IT COMES TO CHILD CARE.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A VERY, VERY STRONG DESIRE TO FULFILL THIS GOAL, TO DO THE BEST FOR OUR CHILD, PROTECT OUR CHILD COME WHAT MAY.

AND MY MOTHER WAS VERY MUCH LIKE THIS.

MANY PEOPLE OF HER GENERATION, SHE GAVE UP HER PROFESSION TO START A FAMILY, AND EVERYTHING SHE DID, I HAD THE IMPRESSION, SHE HAD THAT IN THE BACK OF HER MIND, YOU KNOW, WOULD THIS BRING HER CLOSER TO THE GOAL OF DOING SOMETHING GOOD FOR HER CHILDREN?

>> RIGHT.

>> AND, SO KLARA IS A BIT LIKE THAT.

I MEAN, SHE LITERAL LITTLE HAS IT PROGRAMMED INTO HER.

>> I ALSO WANT TO PICK UP ON SOMETHING THAT YOU'VE SAID ABOUT BOTH YOUR DAUGHTER AND YOUR WIFE, ABOUT WHAT FIERCE AND CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICS OF YOUR WORK THEY ARE.

AND I WAS FASCINATED TO READ HOW IMPORTANT THEY ARE TO YOU, ESPECIALLY IN THE WINNING OF THE NOBEL AND THE BOOKER AND HAVING SO MANY AWARDS, AND SO MANY PEOPLE, I MEAN, REVERE YOUR WORK.

AND -- WHY IS IT IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO HAVE SUCH A -- A GOOD CRITICAL EYE ON WHAT YOU PRODUCE?

>> WELL, THE OBVIOUS THING IS THAT, THE MORE MY REPUTATION RISES, THE LESS PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO GIVE ME FRANK COMMENTS ABOUT MY WRITING.

SO, IT BECOMES MORE AND MORE IMPORTANT THAT I HAVE LANA AND NOW OMI AS FAIRLY SAVAGE CRITICS.

THEY'RE NOT SAVAGE FOR THE SAKE OF IT, BUT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT MY WIFE, I MEAN, SHE WAS MY GIRLFRIEND BACK IN 1979, WHEN I FIRST STARTED TO WRITE, I MEAN, WHEN WE FIRST MET, I WAS NOT A WRITER.

AND SO, SHE SAW THE FIRST ATTEMPTS, AND IN HER -- IN HER EYES, I'M STILL THAT PERSON, I THINK, THIS PERSON WHO -- I'M NOT A FAMOUS WRITER, I'M JUST THIS PERSON THAT RECONS HE CAN WRITE.

AND SO, SHE HASN'T CHANGED IN THE WAY THAT SHE LOOKS AT ANYTHING I PRODUCE.

>> AND DIDN'T SHE FAMOUSLY THROW OUT COPIOUS NUMBERS OF PAGES OF ONE OF YOUR FIRST DRAFTS, BASICALLY SAYING, NO, NO, THIS -- THIS JUST DOESN'T CUT IT YET?

>> YEAH, SHE DID THAT WITH THE LAST ONE, AND ACTUALLY, WITH "KLARA AND THE SUN," AS WELL.

I DID MONTHS OF EXTRA WORK AFTER I THOUGHT I'D FINISHED IT, AFTER SHE TOLD ME, I HAVE TO WORK ON THIS, THIS, AND THIS.

AND THEN -- THEN, OF COURSE, MY WRITER DAUGHTER GOT HOLD OF IT AND GAVE ME A HUGE PILE OF NOTES.

SO, I THOUGHT I FINISHED THIS NOVEL IN APRIL 2019, I DIDN'T HAND IT IN UNTIL DECEMBER 2019.

BECAUSE OF THESE -- THESE VERY TOUGH PEOPLE IN MY FAMILY THAT I HAVE TO GET PAST.

BUT I -- YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S OKAY.

I MEAN, I THINK MANY -- MANY PEOPLE IN ALL KINDS OF AREAS OF ARTISTIC ENDEAVOR, I THINK, OFTEN HAVE PEOPLE LIKE THIS, WHO ARE PART OF THE TEAM.

AS KIND OF A FRONT THING, I JUST HAVE MY NAME, BUT YOU KNOW, I -- YOU KNOW, ISHIGURO IS THE GAME OF THIS LITTLE TEAM.

>> THERE'S THE HISTORICAL WORLD, THE IMAGINARY WORLD, AND THEN THE EMOTIONAL WORLD, AND THE COMMITTEE SAID ABOUT YOU, HE IN NOVELS OF GREAT EMOTIONAL FORCE HAS UNCOVERED THE ABYSS BENEATH OUR SENSE OF CONNECTION WITH THE WORLD.

DO YOU STRUGGLE WITH CONNECTION WITH THE WORLD, YOUR PLACE IN THE WORLD?

I MEAN, I'VE HEARD A LOT OF ABOUT THE U.S.S SAY THAT THE CONCEPT OF ALONENESS, THE CONCEPT OF DEATH, THE EXISTENTIAL STRUGGLE, IS WHAT FUELS THEM AND FUELS THEIR ART.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I REALLY LOVE THE -- THAT CITATION.

I LIKE PARTICULARLY THE STUFF ABOUT EMOTIONAL FORCE, BECAUSE THAT IS SO IMPORTANT TO ME.

WHEN I'M WRITING A NOVEL, I WANT IT TO HAVE AN EMOTIONAL CONNECTION WITH PEOPLE, THAT'S ONE OF MY GREAT PRIORITIES.

AND IT'S ALSO A PRIORITY OF MINE THAT IT STAYS ON MIND FOR A LONG TIME AFTERWARDS.

THE SECOND PART OF THAT CITATION, I'VE BEEN TRYING TO UNPACK EVER SINCE THEY CAME OUT WITH IT.

I'M NOT -- I'M NOT ENTIRELY SURE WHAT IT MEANS, BUT I LIKE IT.

I'M TRYING TO ASPIRE TO IT.

MAYBE IT'S SOMETHING LIKE WHAT YOU SAY, I MEAN, THAT WE HAVE A KIND OF ILLUSION OF BEING CONNECTED TO EACH OTHER, AND TO -- AND TO SOCIETY, TO A GREATER EX TENT THAN WE REALLY ARE.

THAT'S POSSIBLE.

AND I THINK I DO TOUCH ON THAT IN KLARA, AS WELL AS IN OTHER BOOKS, THAT -- THAT THERE IS SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY LONELY ABOUT HUMAN BEINGS.

NOT JUST THE EVERYDAY LONELINESS OF NOT HAVING FRIENDS AROUND YOU, STUFF LIKE THAT, BUT EVEN WHEN YOU'RE SURROUNDED DAY-BY-DAY BY FAMILY AND LOVED ONES, THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT OUR VERY NATURE THAT MAKES US ACTUALLY LONELY, AND SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE VERY COMPLEXITY OF OUR INDIVIDUAL BEINGS.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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