>>> SINCE LAUNCHING TO FAME THROUGH POPULAR AMERICAN SITCOMS, AWARD-WINNING ACTOR KELSEY GRAMMER HAS BUILT A CELEBRATED CAREER.

BUT BEHIND THE SCENES, THE STAR HAS SUFFERED SOME GREAT PERSONAL LOSSES.

INCLUDING THE RAPE AND MURDER OF HIS BELOVED YOUNGER SISTER, KAREN.

GRAMMER SPEAKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT HIS MEMOIR, LAYING BEAR HIS JOURNEY OF HEALING HIS PAIN AND TRAUMA.

AND JUST TO NOTE, THIS CONVERSATION CONTAINS SOME GRAPHIC DETAILS.

>> THANKS, BIANNA.

KELSEY GRAMMER, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S WONDERFUL TO MEET YOU AS YOURSELF.

SO MANY PEOPLE PROBABLY THINK THEY KNOW YOU, YOU WERE ON THE AIR FOR SO LONG AS DR. FRASIER CRANE, ONE OF THE LONGEST RUNNING CHARACTERS, IF NOT THE LONGEST RUNNING CHARACTER IN TELEVISION HISTORY.

SO MANY AWARDS, SO MANY ACCOLADES.

SO, I WAS JUST WONDERING WHAT THAT MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE FOR YOU, FOR SO MANY PEOPLE TO THINK THEY KNOW YOU, BUT THEY COULDN'T POSSIBLY KNOW YOU, BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE KNOWN WHAT YOU WERE CARRYING WITH YOU.

>> MICHEL, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

THANK YOU.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, I UNDERSTAND -- THERE'S GREAT VALUE IN IT, AND GREAT REWARD IN IT, THAT PEOPLE ARE SO FAMILIAR WITH YOU, ON A -- YOU KNOW, AT LEAST ON A PRESENTATIONAL LEVEL.

THEY THINK THEY RECOGNIZE YOU, BECAUSE, OF COURSE, WHAT THEY'RE SEEING ON TELEVISION IS SOME SEMBLANCE OF YOU, SOME REALITY.

YOU'RE NOT VERY GOOD AT THIS STUFF UNLESS YOU'VE CONNECTED TO A KIND OF A TRUTHFUL CHARACTERIZATION THAT PEOPLE CAN RECOGNIZE.

SO, THAT, THEY RECOGNIZE, AND THAT THEN BREEDS FAMILIARITY THAT'S NOT CONTEMPT, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY JUST A SORT OF GRACIOUS AND -- AND GENEROUS TOWARDS YOU.

BUT THEY DON'T KNOW THE SPECIFICS.

THEY JUST HAVE A GOOD FEELING.

SO, THEY FEEL LIKE YOU'VE BEEN IN THEIR LIVING ROOM FOR SO LONG, YOU'RE A FRIEND.

>> OH, THAT'S -- I SEE YOUR POINT.

SO, IT'S A GIFT, IT'S MORE OF A GIFT THAN A BURDEN?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> IT IS, OKAY.

THIS BOOK IS -- IT'S -- IT'S CALLED "KAREN."

IT'S ABOUT YOUR SISTER AND IT'S ABOUT THE WAY SHE DIED, BUT IT'S ALSO ABOUT WHO SHE WAS AND WHO SHE WAS TO YOU.

SO, COULD WE JUST START THERE, LIKE, WHO WAS SHE TO YOU?

>> SHE WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF MY LIFE.

SHE WAS MY GREATEST LOVE.

I MEAN, UNTIL, YOU KNOW, OF COURSE, I GOT OLDER AND, YOU KNOW, REDEDICATED MY AFFECTIONS TO ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.

OUTSIDE OF THAT RELATIONSHIP, MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY SISTER, IT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY CLOSENESS WE HAD.

WE HAD SUCH A MAGNIFICENT SORT OF CHILDHOOD, ADOLESCENCE TOGETHER, YOUNG ADULTHOOD TOGETHER, THAT WAS REMARKABLE.

>> I GUESS WHAT I TOOK FROM THE BOOK WAS THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO KIND OF LET HER KNOW HOW IMPORTANT SHE WAS TO YOU.

SHE WAS TAKEN FROM YOU IN AN AWFUL, AWFUL WAY, AND, I MEAN, IT'S JUST -- YOUR DESCRIPTION OF IT IS HORRIFIC.

YOU WENT BACK AND ACTUALLY READ THE POLICE REPORT.

AND YOU WENT BACK TO THE PLACE WHERE SHE WAS ABDUCTED FROM BEFORE SHE WAS KIDNAPPED AND RAPED AND MURDERED.

AND I JUST -- AND YOU LIVED WITH THIS FOR A LONG TIME.

I WAS WONDERING, WHAT MADE THIS THE RIGHT TIME TO WRITE THIS BOOK, AND TO EXPLORE ALL THE COMPLEXITY OF THAT?

WHY NOW?

>> EAH, THERE'S A QUOTATION IN THE BOOK IN SEVERAL PLACES, I REFER TO THE MLET LINE, THE READINESS IS ALL.

I WASN'T READY.

FOR WHATEVER REASON, IT JUST -- IT DIDN'T PRESENT ITSELF TO ME AS SOMETHING I SHOULD OR COULD DO, AND THEN THE SIMPLE REQUEST TO TELL KAREN'S STORY TURNED INTO A BOOK.

I JUST JOTTED DOWN SOME NOTES, THREE YEARS AGO, MAYBE A LITTLE MORE THAN THREE YEARS NOW, AND REALIZED ABOUT EIGHT PAGES IN THAT I WAS GOING TO BE WRITING A BOOK, AND IT NEEDED TO BE RESPONSIBLE AND HONEST AND UNCOVER EVERYTHING I COULD POSSIBLY THINK OF.

THAT'S WHY THE POLICE REPORT BECAME IMPORTANT.

IT'S ALSO WHY IT BECAME IMPORTANT TO GO BACK AND TRACE HER STEPS, BECAUSE I WASN'T THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED.

AND THE BROTHER IN ME -- THE BROTHER IN ME HAD TO GO.

BECAUSE I COULDN'T BEFORE.

AND -- THAT'S WHO I AM.

I NEEDED TO SEE HER, I NEEDED TO SEE WHERE SHE DIED, I NEEDED TO HOLD HER IN MY CREATIVE IMAGINATION, AND SEE HER OFF IN SOME WAY.

AND THE BOOK WAS -- THE BOOK SUCCEEDED IN DOING THAT, AS WELL.

>> I CAN SEE THAT YOU LIVE WITH THAT GUILT FOR A LONG TIME, IN NOT BEING ABLE TO PROTECT HER.

>> YEAH.

>> AND I -- I AM SURE THAT SOME LISTENING TO THIS CONVERSATION, BE THEY MEN OR WOMEN, BUT I CAN PARTICULARLY UNDERSTAND AS A BROTHER WHY YOU WOULD FEEL THAT WAY.

>> OLDER BROTHER, OLDER SISTER, YOU LOOK AT YOUR SIBLINGS AS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, YOU KNOW?

YOU JUST -- IF YOU ARE A HUMAN, YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE -- THAT SORT OF JUST COMES ALONG FOR THE RIDE, SO -- YEAH.

>> HOW DO YOU THINK LIVING WITH THIS LOSS INFLUENCED YOUR -- YOUR TRAJECTORY AS AN ARTIST?

>> INTERESTING, YEAH.

IT PROBABLY ENCOURAGED ME TO TAKE RISKS.

TO NOT SUFFER FOOLS A LOT, YOU KNOW?

I'M A VERY KIND MAN, I MEAN, BUT EVENTUALLY, I'LL ROLL MY EYES AND SAY, I GOT TO GET OUT OF HERE, YOU KNOW, I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS, BUT -- MOST OF THE TIME, I'M A VERY PATIENT MAN, BUT WITH -- WITH A FOCUS ON GETTING THE JOB DONE.

I LIKE TO GET IN IN THE MIDDLE OF THINGS, I LIKE TO GET INTO THE FRAY, I LIKE TO FIGHT IT OUT.

THAT PROBABLY IS WHAT I WAS GIVEN BY VIRTUE OF LOSING KAREN, IN A LOT OF WAYS, IS THIS -- I'M NOT GOING TO STE THIS LIFE.

>> I JUST WANT TO SAY HERE THAT I'M REALLY SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> IT'S JUST -- SUCH A PROFOUND THING, AND ANY -- HAVING JUST EXPERIENCED THAT IN ONE LOSS, BUT YOU'VE HAD MANY.

I MEAN, YOUR FATHER WAS MURDERED.

AND THEN LATER, YOU KNOW, YOU LOST OTHER SIBLINGS IN A DIVING ACCIDENT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE NOTICED ABOUT LOSS IS THAT IT BRINGS YOU INTO CONNECTION WITH OTHER PEOPLE WHO'VE HAD LOSS.

BUT YOU CAN ALSO SEE IT WHERE A PERSON MIGHT NOT WANT TO FEEL THOSE THINGS ANYMORE.

>> YEAH.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT THINK, YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD BE GREAT, I COULD BE AN ACCOUNTANT AND DO PEOPLE'S TAXES.

>> FEELING FOR ME IS ONE OF THOSE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO.

IT'S JUST -- IT'S -- IT WAS KIND OF WHO I WAS BEFORE KAREN DIED.

SO, YOU KNOW, I DISCOVERED THIS, BUT THAT WAS BECAUSE OF THE LOSS OF MY GRANDFATHER, THAT WAS DOCTOR WHEN -- WHEN GORDON DIED, THE WHOLE WORLD ENDED, AS FAR AS I WAS CONCERNED, AND I HAD TO REBUILD ONE, AND WE KIND OF HAD TO DO THAT TOGETHER.

AND SO, I FOUND THAT EMOTIONAL OUTLET, AND REALIZED THAT THAT WAS PROBABLY THE PATH TO MY SUCCESS AND MY FREEDOM IN A LOT OF WAYS, WAS TO LIVE IN EMOTION, TO -- COULD I HAVE DONE WITHOUT THIS ONE?

YEAH.

BECAUSE I ALSO BELIEVE THAT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE A GOOD ACTOR, YOU -- YOU DIVE INTO THE CREATIVE SORT OF IMAGINATION OF A SITUATION, AND THAT RESPONSE IS PROBABLY JUST AS HONEST AS IF YOU REALLY LIVED IT.

BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT A GREAT IMAGINATION.

AND JUST AS HAS EQUAL AUTHORITY TO SOMEONE WHO HAS ACTUALLY BEEN THROUGH THAT.

SO, YOU CAN LOAN YOUR IMAGINATION TO A CHARACTER AND BE JUST AS AUTHENTIC AS IF YOU LIVED IT.

>> FAMILY IS OBVIOUSLY SO IMPORTANT TO YOU, TO PLAY THE SAME CHARACTER FOR SO MANY YEARS, OVER TWO DIFFERENT SHOWS.

AND I'M WONDERING, IN A WAY, DID THAT BECOME KIND OF PART OF A FAMILY?

>> IT DID.

IT DID.

THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION, I MEAN, I DIDN'T EXACTLY KNOW MY DAD, SO HAVING AN 11-YEAR RELATIONSHIP WITH JOHN MAHONEY HAS MY FATHER WAS MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY FATHER.

I MEAN, I DIDN'T REALLY HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH MY BROTHERS, THEY WERE HALF BROTHERS, MY RELATIONSHIP WITH DAVID HYDE PIERCE WAS MY BROTHER RELATIONSHIP.

AND THAT WAS A WONDERFUL THING TO GET THROUGH THE EXPERIENCE OF THE WORK.

THAT WAS A VERY GOOD THING FOR ME, AND WE DIVE INTO THESE EXPERIENCES AND BASICALLY LIVE THEM, YOU KNOW?

BY ALLOWING OURSELVES TO.

>> BUT YOU WERE ALSO IN A LOT OF PAIN WHILE YOU WERE HAVING THAT OTHER EXPERIENCE.

I MEAN, YOU'RE VERY HONEST ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK, AND I THINK YOU HAVE BEEN ALSO ELSEWHERE, YOU WERE DEALING WITH SOME SERIOUS ADDICTION DURING A PERIOD OF THAT TIME, AND JUST HEARING YOU -- READING YOU SORT OF DESCRIBE, LIKE, HOW YOU WERE ABLE TO KIND OF FUNCTION, EVEN AT THE DEPTHS OF THAT IS, LIKE, I FOUND MYSELF WONDERING, LIKE, HOW ARE YOU STILL HERE?

>> WELL, IT'S A QUESTION THAT COMES UP WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE.

AND IT PROBABLY GOES BACK TO THAT THING WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE, YOU JUST -- YOU JUST DON'T GET TO QUIT, BECAUSE, I MEAN, I FEEL LIKE IT WOULD BE KIND OF AN INSULT TO MY SISTER, THE LIFE THAT WAS TAKEN FROM HER, TO NOT LIVE THIS LIFE FULLY.

THAT'S ALL, YOU KNOW?

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK FINALLY HELPED YOU TO CLOSE THAT CHAPTER?

>> YEAH.

SOME OF IT WAS JUST A SURRENDER TO THE IDEA THAT, WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT, STAY IN THIS, AND WALK THIS PATH, AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

I WASN'T -- I WASN'T ACTUALLY DETERMINING THAT I WAS GOING TO EXPECT A CERTAIN RESULT, BUT IT WAS WORTH THE JOURNEY, AND STAYING ON IT WAS MORE IMPORTANT THAN STEPPING OFF.

AND THEN I HAD THE -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED -- IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN MY HEART ATTACK, HONESTLY, WHERE I JUST SUDDENLY THOUGHT -- BECAUSE I WASN'T PRACTICING ANYTHING THEN, I WASN'T ABUSING ANYTHING AT THE TIME, I MAY HAVE BEEN WORKING OUT TOO HARD THAT DAY, BUT -- THAT WAS THE ONE THAT SAID, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?

YOU WANT TO STAY IN THIS AND FEEL THIS WAY, OR DO YOU WANT TO GET OUT AND FEEL SOMETHING ELSE?

AND SO, I GOT OUT AND FELT SOMETHING ELSE, AND I FOUND LOVE AND A NEW FAMILY AND IT WOULD NEVER MAKE ME -- I WOULD NEVER WANT TO HURT MY CHILDREN FROM PREVIOUS RELATIONSHIPS BY SAYING, YOU KNOW, I FOUND SOMETHING THAT I DIDN'T HAVE THERE, BUT IT JUST BECAME DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW?

AND IT BECAME WORTH LIVING FOR.

>> OH, THAT'S LOVELY.

I DO WANT TO ASK YOU IF YOU -- IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING FROM THE BOOK THAT ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO KILLED KAREN IS STILL ALIVE AND IS -- HAS BEEN UP FOR PAROLE A NUMBER OF TIMES.

>> YES.

>> CAN YOU FORESEE THAT?

THIS PERSON -- >> I DO.

I OFTEN PUT MYSELF IN THAT, THE CHARACTERIZATION OF WHAT -- THERE'S A BASIC HUMAN IMPULSE THESE DAYS.

I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE IT'S POLITICAL, MAYBE IT'S NOT, MAYBE IT'S JUST -- BUT THERE IS A THING, LIKE THE ACCUSED, THE CRIMINAL, IS FAVORED.

OKAY, THAT COULD HAPPEN.

THAT COULD HAPPEN.

IT'S A DEVASTATING THING TO THINK ABOUT.

BUT I HAVE TO BE ABLE TO COME TO TERMS WITH IT, IF IT'S SOMETHING THAT DOES HAPPEN, BECAUSE I KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, OUR SOCIETY HAS GOTTEN TO A PLACE WHERE IT MIGHT BE THAT THEY ACTUALLY FEEL SORRY FOR HIM.

AND -- OKAY.

I MEAN, I KIND OF GET IT.

>> BUT DO YOU FEEL THAT THE PERSON WHO KILLED YOUR SISTER HAS REMORSE?

>> HE HAS SAID SO.

AND THAT WOULD MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE, BUT THEN, HE ALSO AT THE SAME TIME, IN THE LAST PAROLE HEARING, HE ACTUALLY SAID HE DIDN'T THINK HE RAPED HER, HE DIDN'T REMEMBER RAPING HER, HE DIDN'T THINK HE HAD DONE THAT.

>> OH, MY.

>> SO, IT WAS BLINDINGLY SUDDENLY USEFUL TO ME THAT I HAD READ THE POLICE REPORT AT THAT TIME, AND ONE OF THE WITNESSES SAID HE, HIS WORDS, THE LAST WORLDS KAREN EVER HEARD WERE, TILT YOUR HEAD BACK.

AND I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW WHAT?

I GOT AMMUNITION.

THAT'S AMMUNITION.

AND I'D NEVER HEARD THAT PHRASE BEFORE, IT WAS PART OF ONE OF THE KILLER'S STATEMENTS THAT TURNED STATE'S EVIDENCE, BUT IT WAS -- IT WAS SUCH A SHOCK TO ME TO HEAR IT MYSELF, AND THEN TO REALIZE THAT I USED IT MYSELF TO KEEP HIM IN JAIL.

SO, IT WAS A POWER, IN A LOT OF WAYS.

>> IN THE BOOK, YOU WRITE TO FREDDY GLEN, WHO IS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO KILLED YOUR SISTER, AND YOU SAY, WE SHARE A PRISON, FREDDY.

A PRISON YOU MADE.

OUR PRISON.

IT NEED NOT BE KAREN.

SHE IS FREE.

YOU AND I MAY SHARE IT FOREVER, BUT NOW, TELLING HER STORY RELEASES ME.

THAT IS A VERY BEAUTIFUL PASSAGE, BUT DO YOU FEEL RELEASED?

>> YEAH.

YEAH, IT MADE ME REALIZE THAT I KNOW LONGER HAVE TO OCCUPY THE PRISON THAT I HAD BUILT AS A RESULT OF THE ONE HE HAD BUILT.

AND IN -- IN MY IMAGINATION, HIS IS ONE HE CAN REMAIN IN, AND MINE, I DON'T HAVE TO ANYMORE.

THE WALLS -- THE WALLS HAVE BEEN KNOCKED DOWN, THEY'VE OPENED UP.

IT'S ALL -- IT'S ALL IN THAT -- THAT PLACE OF FREEDOM YOU FIND WHEN THE CHARGE IS TAKEN OFF OF SOMETHING.

BUT THE GRIEF WILL NEVER ACTUALLY DISAPPEAR.

BUT THE HORROR OF WHAT HAPPENED TO KAREN IS NOW ECLIPSED BY HOW WONDERFUL SHE WAS.

AND THAT'S -- THAT'S A LOT OF FREEDOM.

>> WOW.

DO YOU HAVE SOMEONE IN MIND THAT YOU HOPE WILL FIND THIS BOOK?

>> YEAH, ANYONE WHO SUFFERED A SIMILAR KIND OF EVENT, ANYONE WHO HAS LOST -- ANY HUMAN BEING, WE HEAR ABOUT THEM EVERY DAY, SOMEONE'S LOST THEIR CHILD.

YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S JUST -- IT'S REMARKABLE, THE PAIN, YOU KNOW, I CAN IMAGINE, BUT THE IDEA IS, IF THERE'S ANYTHING I CAN DO TO HELP YOU, IF THERE'S ANYTHING.

IF THIS BOOK CAN BRING YOUR GRIEF, WHICH IS GOING TO BE CONSTANT, FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, AND HARD AND, LIKE A COMPANION YOU REALLY WISH YOU DIDN'T HAVE, IF I CAN GIVE YOU ANYTHING THAT WILL SQUARE THE GRIEF TO THE JOY THAT YOU GOT FROM KNOWING THAT PERSON, AT LEAST SQUARE IT UP, MAYBE -- MAYBE IT GOES A LITTLE ADVANTAGE TOWARD THE JOY, BUT IF YOU CAN GET TO SQUARE, THEN I DID MY JOB.

>> WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH ME.

TO THE DEGREE THAT YOU CAN EVEN ENVISION THAT, WHAT MIGHT BE NEXT?

I MEAN, YOU'VE ALREADY LIVED SO MANY LIVES, I MEAN, THE FACT IS -- >> FASCINATING, YEAH.

>> THIS INCREDIBLE TV CHARACTER WHO WILL LIVE WITH US FOREVER.

>> RIGHT.

>> YOU KNOW, AS LONG AS -- >> AS LONG AS TELEVISION IS STILL ON.

>> WHOLE NEW GENERATION IS DISCOVERING YOUR WORK IN THAT REALM, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, AND THEN NOW.

WHAT MIGHT BE NEXT?

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT?

>> WELL, I'VE GOT THIS -- I'VE GOT IN NEW VERSION OF "FRASIER," WHICH IS KIND OF ON THE BUBBLE, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE INTERESTED IN SEEING IT CONTINUE, WHERE IT WOULD BE THE FIRST TIME A CHARACTER HAS ACTUALLY BEEN IN THREE MAJOR SHOWS FOR THE DURATION OF THE SHOW, THE GROWTH PERIOD FOR THE CHARACTER.

RIGHT NOW, THE THIRD ONE IS JUST -- IT'S KIND OF LIKE A ING SHOW, THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE INTERESTED IN SEEING IT GO FURTHER.

THAT WOULD BE FASCINATING TO ME, BECAUSE THE MATURATION OF THIS CHARACTER, YOU KNOW, MATCHES MY OWN, WHICH HAS KIND OF BEEN FASCINATING, TO FINALLY BECOME A GREAT DAD.

THAT'S SORT OF WHERE FRASIER IS HEADED, SO -- THAT'S WHERE I'M HEADED, HOPEFULLY.

I MEAN, THERE'S MORE WRITING TO DO, NOW THAT I'VE DISCOVERED THIS.

THERE WAS STUFF I DIDN'T INCLUDE IN THE BOOK, BECAUSE IT WASN'T REALLY CONNECTED TO KAREN.

AND I THOUGHT THE THINGS THAT WERE SORT OF CONTEXT YULE AND MAYBE SIGNIFICANT FOR MY GROWTH AND HER GROWTH AT THE SAME TIME, THAT'S WHAT I WANTED TO PUT IN THE BOOK, AND THEN THE SURVIVAL PART OF IT, YEAH, BUT -- THIS IS KAREN'S LOW KAREN'S, TO BRING HER BACK INTO MEMBERSHIP WITH THIS COMMUNITY, WITH THE WORLD, AND, YOU KNOW, THIS PLANE, AND I THINK I'VE SUCCEEDED IN THAT, AND I KNOW THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I GOT WAS ONE OF MY FIRST FRIENDS READ THROUGH THE FIRST DRAFT AND SAID, WOW, I THINK I KNOW YOUR SISTER.

>> WOW.

>> AND THAT'S -- THAT'S WHAT IT WAS ABOUT.

>> KELSEY GRAMMER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.