>> She's the governor of a battleground state who has battled with the president.

This week on "Firing Line."

>> I don't think anyone should take Michigan for granted.

>> A Democrat from Lansing, Michigan, Gretchen Whitmer became one of the party's rising stars after her decisive victory in 2018.

>> Wow!

[ Laughs ] [ Crowd cheering ] >> As the pandemic hit Michigan, she said President Trump wasn't doing enough.

>> As we know, the federal government hasn't been prepared.

>> He didn't forget it.

>> Don't call the woman in Michigan.

>> Whitmer's response to the crisis landed on Joe Biden's VP short list and led to some of the largest anti-lockdown protests in the country.

>> Freedom!

>> Days after Whitmer's appearance at the Democratic convention, with tensions mounting over how we're going to vote in November... >> I'm very worried about mail-in voting, because I think it's subject to tremendous fraud and being rigged.

>> ...what does Governor Gretchen Whitmer say now?

>> "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible in part by... and by... Corporate funding is provided by... >> Welcome to "Firing Line," Governor Gretchen Whitmer.

>> Thank you.

>> Earlier this week, you appeared at the virtual DNC from Lansing, Michigan.

I want to know, as you called for the nation to act and to heal, how do you think the DNC is doing?

>> You know, I think that we are navigating such unprecedented times, and I'm proud that the Democrats and the Democratic National Committee decided to go virtual and they announced it very early on, recognizing the threat of this pandemic and the importance of modeling the kind of behavior that our epidemiologists and public-health experts are telling us to.

It's been challenging, to be sure.

It's so much more fun to be in a big, crowded arena with feeling the energy around this historic nomination of Kamala Harris and Joe Biden.

But I feel good about where we are headed.

>> You've said that you think the world of vice-presidential nominee Kamala Harris.

Do you think she's the right person for the job?

>> I absolutely do.

And I'm thrilled about this ticket.

It was a surprise to me when I was asked to go through the process, to be sure, but it gave me an opportunity to talk about Michigan and to get to know Joe Biden even better than I already did.

And I think it's the best-case scenario, because I get to keep the best job there is, which is being governor of Michigan, and be close to my family and know that we are going to be breaking a glass ceiling with Kamala Harris' election.

And she is ready to step in and govern if, God forbid, that's necessary.

But what we really expect is Joe Biden to lead the charge and have a phenomenal partner in Kamala Harris.

And I think it is good for those reasons and many, many more.

>> At one point, you considered taking yourself out of the running.

And, as you know, Senator Amy Klobuchar took herself out of the running back in June, saying that given the national conversation about racial justice and reconciliation, it was imperative that Joe Biden select an African-American woman for the ticket.

You ended up staying in for consideration.

Why did you do that?

>> So, when I had my call with Joe Biden -- I talked to a couple of my close allies and counselors, and they said, "This is a man who's running for president, and he's asked you to walk the path with him.

Walk the path, because it's going to be good for Michigan one way or another, and your heart is with Michigan."

And so I continued to walk the path with him, and it was an honor.

>> Would you walk that path with Joe Biden to a cabinet-level position, if it would further Michigan's needs and causes?

>> To be honest, it's hard to imagine that there is any position in the cabinet that could rival the position that I currently hold.

I've learned to say never say never, but my heart is here in Michigan.

My kids, my father.

I've got three generations of my family here, and I've got a lot of work to do as governor of this great state.

So, what I'm most looking forward to is Joe Biden and Kamala Harris filling the cabinet with phenomenal experts that I can work with on behalf of the people of my home state.

>> So, let's go back.

You're a first-term governor and you're one of seven governors who flipped that seat in 2018 midterm elections.

Michigan voted for Donald Trump in 2016 by 11,000 votes.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Two years later, you won Michigan by more than 400,000 votes.

So, you spoke about unity on Monday at the virtual DNC.

How would you bring the kind of unity those voters that voted for Donald Trump but also voted for you two years later -- how is that kind of healing something you think about moving forward?

>> Well, I think about this all the time, to be honest.

I was raised in a household where my father was a very liberal Republican, and my mother was a more of a conservative Democrat.

We had a lot of interesting conversations around our dinner-table issue, but they always centered around public service at the core.

They centered around recognizing that we are Michiganders before we are partisans.

Right now in our nation, everything, I mean, every issue has been so hyperpolarized.

I never imagined that in the middle of a pandemic, where we're talking about public health, the health of the public, meaning everybody, could become such a political issue and so polarized that masks are a statement of your political allegiances, which is crazy.

And it's frankly very dangerous.

And that's why I think it's so important that we, as a nation, chart a path where we can find room for everyone on some of these core fundamental issues.

And that's what I focused on in my election.

I ran on a phrase that I've become known for, and it's "Fix the damn roads."

>> Are the roads fixed?

>> [ Laughs ] We're making some progress.

But if I had someone in Washington, D.C., who could get an infrastructure package done and I could have a legislature that would work with me a little more on this fundamental, that hurts Republicans, Democrats, independents, and agnostics alike.

So, that's what I'm talking about.

Those core dinner-table issues, I think, is where Joe Biden's candidacy can bring non-traditional Democrats into this fold.

There are people that are maybe voted for Donald Trump last cycle and are recognizing that it didn't work out very well.

>> Well, listen, you talk about somebody in Washington who could help you pass an infrastructure bill, but it'd be nice, probably from your position -- I'd love to get your thoughts on this -- to have somebody from Washington who's not attacking you personally.

Let's go back to the middle of March 2020.

You remember it well.

The country realizes it's in the middle of a pandemic, and you go forward, you shut down bars, you shut down restaurants, movie theaters, and go on cable television and you say this about the federal government.

Look, the president then tweeted about you that day, calling you the "the failing Michigan governor."

And it's gotten a lot uglier from there, as you know.

You've said that you've lost sleep when the president tweets about you, because you are afraid you're going to endanger the benefits you could get from the federal government.

So, what have you learned from that experience?

Should you have never cited the failing of the federal government in the first place?

>> No.

In fact, I think that those words have rung so true that everyone's saying them now, that this federal response to COVID-19 is responsible for 170,000 people losing their lives.

Donald Trump did not create the virus, but he's in charge of the national response to it.

Millions of people are unemployed.

Our economy has taken such a huge hit.

We've got the greatest recession since the Great Depression now.

This is because of the bungling on the federal level.

And so when I said that, I didn't know how true it would be and I also couldn't have anticipated that here we are all these months later, and they still haven't gotten it right.

So I think -- >> Why do you think the president is so focused on you?

>> I think he knows that he barely won Michigan in 2016, that the road to The White House goes through the state of Michigan, that he has a tendency to attack women leaders.

So these are all ingredients, I think, for what we've seen play out over the last few months here.

>> How's Michigan doing when it comes to COVID?

You have had more than 100,000 cases.

You've had more than 6,500 deaths.

This is a chart that you know well.

There is a second uptick that has happened over the summer.

How are things now?

Are things under control?

>> Well, let me tell you where we were in March.

Michigan is the 10th-largest state in the nation, and we have a third-highest number of COVID cases and the third-highest number of COVID deaths for many weeks.

That's why we got aggressive and we followed the science.

We listened to the epidemiologists and the public-health experts.

Now, when you look at positivity rates across the country, Michigan is 40th.

We are still the 10th-largest state.

We went from third and we're now 40th.

And so that shows that these aggressive tactics worked, that the people of Michigan have, by and large, taken this seriously.

And so I'm very proud of the work that we have done, but it's always tenuous.

We still have COVID very present in all parts of Michigan.

And if we drop our guard, we know those numbers can skyrocket fast as we're seeing play out across the country, and that's why we've got to stay vigilant.

>> So, you called your tactics aggressive, which is what some of your critics have said.

Look, in hindsight, are there any of the policies you put in place that you think were too aggressive or maybe overreaching?

The ban on personal boating, for example.

Are there things you know now that you would do differently?

>> I mean, certainly, if I could go back in a time machine with all the information I have available now, would I do some additional activities?

Of course.

If I could go back to last November, I would start producing N95 masks, and we'd make them from Michigan for the whole country.

But, of course, we didn't have information back then that this was going to be one of those simple tools that we so desperately needed across the country.

We're learning best practices and we're staying nimble.

But any leader who says "I wouldn't change a darn thing" hasn't learned anything and isn't educable.

So, we're going to be in the midst of COVID-19 for a long time, for many months to come, if not longer, and that's why we've got to keep following the science -- so that we can protect people and get -- create a better likelihood that we can re-engage this economy in a robust way.

>> You've issued more than 100 executive orders in order to help address the issues that your state is dealing with.

Large protests have ensued, and they've gained national attention.

On April 17th, President Trump tweeted... And 13 days later, there were armed protesters in your state Capitol.

Now, Michigan has a growing number of residents who belong to far-right patriot and militia movements, and some of them have called you "Whitler" as a nickname.

First of all, why do you think their numbers are growing?

And do you think President Trump is egging them on?

>> Absolutely President Trump is egging them on.

When the president started making this personal and attacking me -- and a few other governors, like Jay Inslee, for instance -- we saw a complete change in the political rhetoric that is happening on the ground.

Up until then, my legislature was supporting my emergency orders.

We were working very well together.

When that happened, they wouldn't extend an emergency order.

They started taking me to court, started introducing legislation to take the powers of the governor away.

They're trying to issue all sorts of measures to hem me in and keep me from doing what I need to do to protect people.

I'm not going to be bullied into making decisions that are going to cost people's lives.

It's just not going to happen.

But when the president eggs people on, it has an impact.

This rhetoric that has come out of this -- consistently out of this White House has engendered a hateful environment that has emboldened people's worst tendencies -- death threats against me, you know, people putting likeness of me in a noose, for instance.

This is the kind of bologna that I've had to deal with.

And, yet, I'm not going to be dissuaded from following the best science and the best minds in medicine, because whether people voted for me or not, whether they agree with me or not, whether they're standing out there protesting me or not, my job is to protect them, and that's what I'm going to do.

>> So, it's been reported, Governor Whitmer, that Vice President Pence was somebody that you were able to go to to ask him to discourage protesters and to discourage some of the bologna, as you put it.

I mean, has the vice president been able to be supportive of you?

>> I'll just say this.

I think that Mike Pence is a decent human being.

I do think that he's made himself very available when I have reached out and he's been incredibly cordial and very helpful in terms of ensuring that Michigan is getting the assistance we need from FEMA, for instance, and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

And I am grateful for that, and I don't have a bad word to say about that relationship.

He's been incredibly helpful.

All of that being said, I have made numerous requests that they bring the heat down because this is a pandemic.

This is a public-health crisis.

COVID-19 does not care if you are a Democrat or a Republican.

And that's why we all have to remember the enemy is a virus.

Let's act like we're in a war.

And that's the call to action and that's where I still am hoping to get some assistance at some point.

I don't know if it'll ever happen, though.

>> You criticized all those protesters who came to the Capitol for protesting not wearing masks.

You're a big booster of masks.

I want to show you a photo from several weeks later, and there you are participating in an anti-police-brutality protest.

And while you're wearing a mask, it doesn't appear as though you're practicing the same degree of social distancing that you had also criticized the protesters at the Capitol for not doing.

Tell me, why was it okay for you not to stand 6 feet apart in that circumstance?

>> Yeah, I understand that people see those pictures and ask those questions.

Like, I get it.

And I think that's a fair and legitimate question.

The fact of the matter is that with the death of George Floyd and the pain that the African-American community was confronting, to show up, I thought, was really important.

I didn't handshake.

I didn't high-five.

I didn't hug the way that I would usually greet all my friends at this event.

There was lots of hand sanitizer use, and we all kept our masks on.

But the fact of the matter is, we were not able to maintain 6 feet of separation at all times.

But I also think that part of that lesson is, you can show up, you can exercise your First Amendment rights and do it in a way that keeps you safe.

And that's an important thing to know.

>> Because you've suggested that wearing masks -- and, frankly, the CDC and the science also says that wearing masks really is going to be one of the major drivers of the elimination of the spread of the virus -- why is it okay, in Michigan, to not wear a mask to go vote?

>> So, we wanted to make sure that we were observing people's constitutional rights to go vote.

And while the mask mandate is really important, our legal team said that it was important for us to acknowledge that if someone didn't come in with a mask on, that they could still exercise their fundamental right to vote.

And it's really that simple.

All of that being said, we're strongly encouraging people, number one, to vote from home.

And if they do go in person, we're strongly encouraging them to wear a mask and observe the social distancing when they're in line.

>> It's been reported that 53% of Michiganders plan to vote by mail.

How many Michiganders do you suspect will be availing themselves of absentee ballots this fall?

>> I think -- I don't have a specific number for you.

I can tell you that we had our primary the first week of August and that we saw a million more people vote by mail.

That's a big deal, and it's a big change.

And so we've got to make sure that we've got the infrastructure to ensure that that happens.

And I mean the human infrastructure.

So there are -- >> So, I mean, that was a real chance to sort of test-drive voting by mail.

How did it go?

>> That's right.

It went well.

The reports are that, largely, it went well.

Certainly, there are things we need to learn.

This was our first time doing it, and we're doing it in the midst of a global pandemic.

So that's certainly complicating factors.

But I think that it was a good experience and I anticipate a lot of people will be voting from home.

>> Governor, given that President Trump won the state of Michigan in 2016 by slightly less than 11,000 votes and that, in the primary, about 10,000 ballots, absentee ballots, were invalidated because the signatures were not correct or they arrived too late, in a tight election, if Michigan is close again, the difference could lie in whether a certain number of absentee ballots are validated or invalidated.

So what are you guys doing to ensure that you have a minimum number of absentee ballots that are invalidated?

>> Yeah, so, the concerns around the United States Postal Service is real.

It's not good enough just to have your ballot postmarked before Election Day or on Election Day.

It has to be received on Election Day, the way that our law is currently written.

I'd love it if the legislature would work with me to give people who are voting from home in the middle of a pandemic the comfort to know that if they get that in the mail before Election Day, it'll be counted.

That's currently not a guarantee right now, and that's why all these games that seem to be in play at the federal level around the post office are incredibly concerning.

So, we're going to do everything that is within our control.

If I can get the legislature to work with me on these, I think it will make it even better.

>> How realistic is that?

Will the legislature work with you?

>> You know, I don't know, because Republicans like to vote from home, as well, and especially in the midst of a global pandemic.

So I think maybe there's a path there, but we haven't gotten too far down it yet.

>> I want to ask you specifically about Michigan's law, because it allows voters to have until October 30th, or four days before the election, to request an absentee ballot.

And two of those days are Saturday and Sunday.

You know, the U.S.

Postal Service sent your state a letter saying that those deadlines might be too tight to be able to get the results back.

What are you doing?

Are you considering changing the deadline?

How do you plan to tackle that issue?

>> Well, that's precisely why our secretary of state is mailing applications to people all across the state.

All eligible voters are getting an application mailed to them so that they can fill it out and get it in.

So if people had not voted maybe a week out, maybe 10 days out, maybe two weeks out, we'll be encouraging them to go in person, which is hard for me to encourage anyone to do anything in person that they don't absolutely have to.

But at this juncture, that would be a necessary thing to do.

So to go in person, wearing a mask, request the ballot, and vote it while you're standing there is the best way -- if you haven't voted come four days out from the election -- is the best way to do it and to get it counted.

>> Look, there are lawsuits that are pending in more than 40 states.

Given that there is so much confusion coming down the plank and all of this litigiousness from both sides, how are we going to be able to count on the results of the election?

>> I think that it's going to be important that we tell people it might take a while.

We need to manage expectations.

I know that the president has made some flippant remarks about if the count isn't done on Election Day, it doesn't matter, it doesn't count.

That's bizarre.

We're going to get an accurate count.

We're going to -- If it takes a little longer, it takes a little longer.

>> You've said that Michigan is a toss-up in 2020 and you don't believe some of the polls that suggest Joe Biden is running way ahead.

Voters in Michigan really exemplify the nation's political divide of urban, ethnically diverse Democratic residents, and then rural, mostly white Republican residents.

So, which group do you believe will have higher turnout in this election?

>> I think we're going to have a high-turnout election, period.

The fact of the matter is, 2016 was a historically depressed election.

11,000 votes is a small margin, but it's -- Because the whole turnout was so much smaller.

That was the biggest story.

Two votes in every precinct.

Michelle Obama mentioned that there was a state where it was two votes in every precinct that would have made the difference.

That was my state.

>> That was Michigan, yeah.

>> That's right.

And, so, I do think that the nature of this environment, the unemployment rates and the COVID rates -- I do think we're going to see an increased turnout amongst all different, you know, demographics.

>> Governor, do you think that there will be a significant number of people who are disinclined to accept the results of the election?

>> It's troubling to me that it seems as though The White House is intent on starting to sow those seeds of discontent.

I do think that that is a strategic decision that they've made or maybe it's an off-the-cuff decision that they've made, but it strikes me as incredibly cynical and calculating.

And I think that that's very troubling, because the great thing about, historically, our elections is even after tough-fought battles, the victor is magnanimous and that they are respectful of the outgoing administration, and the outgoing administration is respectful of the people who made their choice and knows that the health of our union is more important than the personal ego or politics of the person.

>> That goes both ways, though, right?

I mean, it goes for -- You know, if Biden were to lose, that goes for Democrats and -- >> Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And that's what we have seen, historically.

I believe that's -- You know, Joe Biden is a statesperson first.

He's an American first.

He would put the health and welfare of our country ahead of his own needs.

So, I say that with all confidence and no animus toward any political party, just an acknowledgement of this current White House and how different they are from any of our experience and how destructive it's been.

>> The unemployment in your state at the end of June was over 14%.

And you have said that you trust Joe Biden and the economy.

Is this really what the vote will come down to in Michigan?

>> I think that so many times, elections always come down to the economy, right?

The mishandling of COVID has exacerbated the public-health crisis that we're confronting.

We are the wealthiest nation in the world, and we've got some of the worst COVID numbers in the world because of the mismanagement.

Those numbers are the reason that we are having such economic pain.

We've got to fire on both cylinders.

It's not one or the other of the false choices that have been the hallmark of this administration.

It's both.

>> So, this program ran for 33 years.

It was hosted by William F. Buckley Jr., the original "Firing Line."

And back in 1987, when Joe Biden first ran for president, he appeared on "Firing Line" with William F. Buckley Jr., and I'd like you to take a look at when he said then.

>> The next president better get that deficit moving this way.

The important thing is not whether it's at this angle or this angle, but that it's a predictable, steady decline.

If we're going to raise enough taxes to eliminate the deficit, we put this country, in the next two years, in a depression.

>> Back then, Joe Biden was concerned about the U.S. fiscal outlook, and since then, deficits have skyrocketed more than tenfold, as we all know, especially during this crisis.

Is Joe Biden as concerned now about deficits as he was then?

And should he be?

>> I believe he is.

And I also believe he's an incredibly educated person on the economy and fiscal policy.

I know that under the Clinton-Gore administration, under the Obama-Biden administration, we had strong economies.

And that's, I think, an important strength that Democrats don't get enough credit for.

These promises of these tax cuts that the Trump administration pushed haven't gotten to the vast majority of people.

It's helped the very -- the people at the very top.

We're all Americans.

Every one of us wants to get ahead, but we've got to get the fundamentals right, and so we've got to make priorities like that, as well.

>> Let me end with one thing you said back on Monday night.

You said, "Let us heal as one nation."

How have you tried to do that in Michigan?

>> Well, by putting the focus on public health, by recognizing that the 6,500 people that have passed -- it's not just a number.

It's not just a tally that we see continuing to go up.

These are people's lives.

These are moms and dads and brothers and sisters and daughters and sons.

These are stories that will never be fully written because of COVID-19.

When we focus on the humanity, when we focus on the things that we all share and the dreams that each of us has, I think that's how we can start to heal.

>> Governor Whitmer, thank you for taking the time to join us on "Firing Line."

>> Thank you.

>> "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible in part by... and by... Corporate funding is provided by... ♪♪ >> You're watching PBS.