>> THE RECENT PAUSE ON INTERNATIONAL STUDENT VISAS IS ONE OF MANY SIGNS POINTING TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HOSTILITY TOWARD DIVERSITY AND IMMIGRANTS.

HISTORICALLY THE COMMUNITIES HAVE PAID --PLAYED A BIG ROLE IN SHAPING AMERICA LIKE THE CHINESE AMERICANS WHOSE ROLE HAS OFTEN BEEN OVERLOOKED IN HISTORY BOOKS.

THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE NEW YORKER IS HOPING TO SPOTLIGHT HIS NEW STORY WITH HIS NEW BOOK , STRANGERS IN THE LAND.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THE MORE THAN CENTURY LONG STRUGGLE TO BELONG.

>> THANK YOU BIANNA AND MICHAEL LUO, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

THIS BOOK STARTING WITH THE GOLDRUSH , IS SWEEPING HISTORY BUT ALSO SOMEWHAT PERSONAL.

IT BEGAN WITH SOME INCIDENT THAT HAPPENED.

THAT IS HOW YOU STARTED COMING TO WRITE THE BOOK.

PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT.

>> THIS WAS OCTOBER 2016, WE WERE JUST A FEW WEEKS AWAY FROM TRUMP'S ELECTION.

YOU COULD FEEL NATIVISM REALLY DESCENDING ON THE COUNTRY.

THIS WAS AN ENCOUNTER I HAD ON THE UPPER EAST SIDE OF MANHATTAN.

WE WERE WITH FRIENDS AND I WAS WITH FAMILY AND TWO DAUGHTERS.

THERE WAS A WOMAN THAT BRUSHED PAST AND WAS AGGRAVATED THAT WE WERE IN HER WAY.

SHE MUTTERED UNDER HER BREATH, GO BACK TO CHINA.

THIS WAS SUNDAY AFTER CHURCH BUT I DID NOT TURN THE OTHER CHEEK.

I CONFESS, I RAN AFTER HER AND GOT IN HER FACE ESSENTIALLY I WAS LIKE, ARE YOU SERIOUS?

THEN SHE SCREAMED AT ME GO BACK TO YOUR EFFINGHAM COUNTRY .

I WAS TRYING TO COME UP WITH A SMART RETORT .

I SAID PATHETICALLY, I WAS BORN IN THIS COUNTRY AND I TWEETED ABOUT THIS AND IT ENDED UP BECOMING VIRAL.

I WROTE A PIECE FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES WHERE I WAS WORKING AT THE TIME AS AN OPEN LETTER TO HER THAT THE NEWSPAPER ENDED UP RUNNING IT ON THE FRONT PAGE THE FOLLOWING DAY.

I WROTE ABOUT THIS FEELING -- THAT IS COMMON TO THE ASIAN- AMERICAN EXPERIENCE.

I WAS THINKING ABOUT MY KIDS AND MY DAUGHTER WHO IS A NURSE AND MY OLDER DAUGHTER WHO WAS WALKING NEXT TO ME.

I WONDERED ABOUT, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE TWO GENERATIONS REMOVED, MY PARENTS IMMIGRANT EXPERIENCE IN THE 1960S AND 1970S, WHETHER THEY WOULD EVER FEEL LIKE THEY TRULY BELONG IN THIS COUNTRY.

THAT SET ME ON THIS JOURNEY , INTELLECTUAL JOURNEY AND A DESIRE TO UNDERSTAND HISTORY BETTER.

I REALIZED IN THE AFTERMATH , I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW.

I THINK THAT IS COMMON FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

AMERICANS IN GENERAL.

EVEN THOUGH A LOT OF HISTORIANS HAVE DONE GREAT WORK, IT IS NOT BROADLY KNOWN.

>> THE HISTORY OF AMERICA IS THE HISTORY OF IMMIGRATION AND THE HISTORY OF NATIVISM.

ONE OF THE FIRST BIG IMMIGRATION WAVES IS THE ONE YOU WRITE ABOUT WITCHES IN THE 1840S .

ESPECIALLY BECAUSE OF THE GOLDRUSH AND CHINESE IMMIGRANTS COMING IN.

LET'S START WITH GOLD MOUNTAIN.

TELL ME HOW THAT BEGAN AT ALL.

>> I DREAMED OF FINDING PATIENT ZERO AND HOW THIS STARTED.

THERE ACTUALLY IS AN ACCOUNT , THERE IS LAURA PASSED ALONG IN THE CHINESE COMMUNITY OF A MERCHANT THAT ARRIVED IN 1847 AND WAS AMONG THOSE THAT VENTURED INTO THE SIERRA NEVADA AND WROTE THIS LETTER HOME TO A VILLAGER AND AS THE STORY GOES, VILLAGER TOLD OTHER PEOPLE ABOUT IT AND SET OFF HIMSELF.

WHATEVER THE STORY, THIS WAS LIKE AN ESCALATOR OF PEOPLE TELLING THEIR BROTHERS AND SONS AND FATHERS TO COME.

THEY HAD TOLD STORIES OF GOLD MOUNTAIN .

PEOPLE STARTED GETTING ON BOAT SEND COMING.

THEY WOULD USE FAMILY FARMS AND LAND AS COLLATERAL FOR LOANS .

BY 1860, 1/10 OF THE POPULATION IN CALIFORNIA WAS CHINESE.

AS YOU POINT OUT, THIS REALLY WAS A GLOBAL MIGRATION.

THIS WAS AN UNPRECEDENTED EXPERIMENT IN MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY THAT WAS HAPPENING JUST AS THE COUNTRY WAS DEBATING AND THIS OTHER ISSUE OF RACE.

THERE WAS THIS OTHER EXPERIMENT THAT WE HAD NOT EVER GONE THROUGH WHERE THERE ARE WHITE AMERICANS, BLACK AMERICANS , IMMIGRANTS FROM EUROPE AND CHINESE.

THERE WERE ALSO CALIFORNIANS WHO WERE THE MEXICAN SETTLERS THAT BECAME CITIZENS AFTER CALIFORNIA WAS ANNEXED.

WE DIDN'T DO PARTICULARLY WELL IN THIS TEST.

>> IT IS INTERESTING.

YOU TALK ABOUT ON THE EASTERN PART OF THE UNITED STATES, THE SLAVERY ISSUE WAS HAPPENING.

THE ISSUE OF IMMIGRATION, ESPECIALLY CHINESE IMMIGRATION.

NOW 150 YEARS LATER, WE ARE STILL FACING THOSE THINGS IN AMERICA.

ARE THEY INTERRELATED IN SOME WAYS?

>> TOTALLY.

THAT IS ONE OF THE MENTIONS OF THE BOOK AND INTERVENTIONS THAT A LOT OF HISTORIANS ARE TRYING TO MAKE NOWADAYS.

YOU NEED TO CONSIDER THESE HISTORIES TOGETHER.

THIS CHINESE QUESTION, DEBATE OVER IMMIGRATION COINCIDED WITH THE VANQUISHING OF RECONSTRUCTION IN THE SOUTH AND THE EXPELLING OF NATIVE PEOPLE AND THE ERADICATION OF NATIVE PEOPLES IN THE WEST AND THE CHINESE QUESTION IS PART OF THAT.

ALL OF THOSE HISTORIES CONTINUE TODAY AND THEY NEED TO BE CONSIDERED TOGETHER.

>> IT SEEMS FROM THE BOOK THAT CHINESE IMMIGRANTS WERE ACCEPTED PRETTY WELL AT FIRST.

WHAT TURNED IT AROUND E >> IT WAS THE NUMBERS STARTED TO RISE.

THE WELCOME YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, THERE WERE CITY LEADERS IN SAN FRANCISCO THAT HAVE A PUBLIC CEREMONY THAT WELCOMED THEM.

IT WAS ORGANIZED BY CIVIC LEADERS AND PASTORS.

THEY WERE PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN EVANGELIZING THE CHINESE.

ACTUALLY THE DAILY NEWSPAPER IN CALIFORNIA AT THAT POINT ACTUALLY WROTE POSITIVELY ABOUT THESE CHINESE ARRIVALS PREDICTING THAT ONE DAY THEY WOULD BE AT THE HALLS OF CONGRESS AND VOTING JUST AS INFLUENTIAL AS OTHER IMMIGRANT GROUPS WHO BECOME NATURALIZED IN CITIZENS.

WHAT YOU SEE IS IN THE 1850S AND 1860S, THERE ARE HORRIFIC EPISODES OF VIOLENCE.

THE 1860S WAS THE BUILDING OF THE RAILROAD WHICH THE CHINESE WERE AN ESSENTIAL PART OF.

PARTICULARLY THE WESTERN SIDE OF THE RAILROAD.

FOR A MOMENT, THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN AN OPENING FOR CHINESE TO BE WELCOMED BECAUSE THEY WERE ESSENTIAL IN THIS DYNAMIC -- GIGANTIC ACCOMPLISHMENT.

THERE WAS AN ECONOMIC DOWNTURN IN THE 1870S THAT REALLY CAUSED THE ANTI-CHINESE MOVEMENT TO TAKE OFF AND POLITICAL POLARIZATION IS A BIG PART OF THE STORY TOO.

>> DOES THAT ECHO TODAY YOU THINK?

>> IT IS ALL THE ECHOES OF HISTORY.

ALL OF THE CLICHÉS .

WHETHER MARK TWAIN SAID THIS OR NOT, HISTORY DOESN'T REPEAT ITSELF.

THE ANTI-CHINESE MOVEMENT RESEMBLES IN A LOT OF WAYS, THE MAGA MOVEMENT.

IT IS A NIMBUS OF OUTRAGE DISINFECTED WHITE WORKERS.

NOT JUST WORKERS THAT OTHER PEOPLE WHO FELT STUCK ECONOMICALLY IN SOME WAY.

ON THE WEST THERE WAS A GREAT EXPECTATION THAT THE RAILROAD WOULD OPEN UP NEW MARKETS AND THAT TURNED OUT TO NOT BE TRUE.

IT ENDED UP OPENING UP MORE COMPETITION.

THERE IS A NUMBER OF FACTORS THAT INVOLVED RACE AND THE ECONOMY AND ALSO THE EMERGENCE OF DEMAGOGUE LIKE FIGURES.

THERE IS A GUY NAMED DENNIS CARNEY THAT GAVE GIANT RALLIES IN THE SANDLOT NEAR CITY HALL.

HE RAILED AGAINST CORPORATE POWER.

HE ENDED HIS RALLIES WITH THE CHINESE MUST GO.

IT REMINDS ME A LOT OF THE POPULISM OF TODAY.

>> ONE OF THE ECHOES WE HAVE TODAY FROM YOUR BOOK, INVOLVES THE FACT THAT FOR THE CHINESE , AFTER THEY STARTED ATTACKING, THERE WAS A PROGRAM OF MASS DEPORTATION .

HOW DID THAT WORK OUT CAME -- ?

>> IT DIDN'T WORK OUT.

IN 1880 TO THE PAST WHAT IS KNOWN AS THE CHINESE EXCLUSION ACT THAT BANS LABORERS FROM ENTERING THE COUNTRY AND THEY CONTINUE TO PASS INCREASINGLY MORE ONEROUS VERSIONS OF THIS LAW.

IN 1892, THERE WAS A RENEWAL OF CHINESE EXCLUSION KNOWN AS THE GEARY ACT .

IT REQUIRED THE CHINESE REGISTER TO JUSTIFY EXISTENCE .

IF THEY DIDN'T REGISTER THEY WOULD BE SUBJECT TO DEPORTATION.

IT IS INCREDIBLE.

ORGANIZED A CAMPAIGN OF MASS RESISTANCE AND VERY FEW CHINESE REGISTERED.

THEY MADE A COURT CHALLENGE AND TOOK IT TO THE SUPREME COURT AND WOUND UP LOSING .

THERE WAS TALK WITH THE CHINESE THAT REFUSED TO REGISTER AND REFUSED TO BE PHOTOGRAPHED .

THERE WAS TALK OF DEPORTING THEM EN MASSE .

THE FUNNY THING, THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE CONCLUDED THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE FUNDS TO DO THIS .

THEY DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY ALLOCATED TO DO THIS.

IT COST A CERTAIN AMOUNT TO SHIP SOMEBODY BACK TO CHINA AND IT WOULD ALSO COST MONEY TO DEPLOY PEOPLE TO ARREST AND DETAIN PEOPLE.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY.

EVENTUALLY, AFTER THE SUPREME COURT RULED AGAINST THE CHINESE, THEY DID WIND UP REGISTERING.

THAT EFFORT ON MASS DEPORTATION AND THE NEED FOR THAT WENT AWAY.

>> DESPITE THE RACISM AND VIOLENCE DIRECTED AT THE CHINESE IMMIGRANTS, HERE IS SOMETHING YOU WRITE IN THE BOOK.

THE CHINESE IN AMERICA WERE NOT SIMPLY VICTIMS OF VIOLENCE AND OPPRESSION, THEY WERE THE PROTAGONIST IN THE STORY OF AMERICA .

TELL ME ABOUT SOME OF THOSE PROTAGONISTS.

>> I AM VERY PROUD , IT WAS LIKE PANNING FOR GOLD.

AS YOU KNOW, THE ARCHIVE HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THE POWERFUL AND THE POWERLESS ARE OFTEN LEFT OUT.

YOU HAVE TO DO SOME PANNING FOR GOLD FOR THE STORIES OF PEOPLE AND CHARACTERS.

THEY ARE INCREDIBLE STORIES.

I THINK OF ANY NUMBER OF THEM , THE STORY OF YOUNG WING WHO IS THE FIRST UNIVERSITY STUDENT TO ENROLL AT AN AMERICAN UNIVERSITY AND GRADUATED FROM YALE.

HE LED THIS CHINESE EDUCATIONAL MISSION AND BROUGHT CHINESE STUDENTS TO AMERICA AND --WHO CAME AS A YOUNG BOY AND CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY AND BECAME A PASTOR AND THEN A NEWSPAPER PUBLISHER AND A SPOKESMAN FOR THE CHINESE COMMUNITY.

I THINK OF ORDINARY STORIES OF IMMIGRATION AND PEOPLE WHO BUILT THEIR LIVES HERE.

THEY ARE THROUGHOUT THE BOOK.

THAT IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO DO.

IN THE END, IN THE BOOK, BUT CHINESE AS A COLLECTIVE PEOPLE END UP AS THE CENTER PROTAGONISTS OF THE BOOK AND YOU GET INVESTED IN THEM AND ROOT FOR THEM.

AND YOU GET UPSET FOR THEM AND SAD FOR THEM.

THE STORIES OF INDIVIDUAL CHINESE IS WHAT HELP ENLIVEN THIS HISTORY AND MAKE IT MEMORABLE.

>> THE 1965 ACT THAT LIFTED THE QUOTA THAT WAS HOLDING DOWN CHINESE IMMIGRATION AND IT WAS SIGNED BY LYNDON JOHNSON.

WHY DID HE SIGN IT ?

WHAT WAS THE POINT?

>> THIS WAS PART OF HIM CARRYING ON THE LEGACY OF JFK AFTER THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT.

THIS IS WHAT HE TOOK UP NEXT.

THE THING THAT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE, FOR PROPONENTS OF THE BILL, THEY NEVER EXPECTED THAT IT WAS GOING TO DRAMATICALLY CHANGE THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE COUNTRY.

THIS WAS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR THE PASSAGE.

IT WAS A LITTLE BIT OF A MATH MISTAKE.

BECAUSE IT PRIORITIZED PEOPLE WITH SPECIAL SKILLS, THE WAY THE PROPONENTS OF THE BILL RATIONALIZED IT, THERE WAS A CERTAIN NUMBER OF THIS GROUP AND THAT GROUP.

WHEN THEY BRING OVER THEIR FAMILIES, WE WILL HAVE ROUGHLY THE SAME .

WHEN LYNDON JOHNSON SIGNED THE BILL HE ASSURED THE PUBLIC THAT IT WAS NOT A REVOLUTIONARY BILL.

WHAT THEY UNDERESTIMATED WAS THE POWER .

AND ASIAN IMMIGRANTS ONCE THE DOORS WERE OPENED.

THAT KIND OF SNOWBALLED.

THAT IS WHAT SET IN MOTION THE TRANS---TRANSFORMATION WE ARE EXPERIENCING TODAY.

>> IN COMPETITION WITH CHINA AND FIGHTS OVER EVERYTHING FROM CHIPS AND TARIFFS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

IS BAD AT ALL CONNECTED TO THE ANTI-IMMIGRANT SENTIMENTS THAT YOU MAY HAVE FELT ON THE UPPER EAST SIDE FROM THAT RACIST WOMAN?

>> I THINK SO.

THE INTERESTING THING, IN THIS HISTORY THAT I WRITE ABOUT THAT IS CENTERED IN THE LATE 19th CENTURY AND EARLY 20th CENTURY, CHINA WAS WEAK.

IT WAS TORN BY WAR .

IT WAS HUMILIATED WITH WESTERN POWERS.

TODAY, CHINA IS AN ECONOMIC TECHNOLOGICAL MILITARY SUPERPOWER.

WE ARE IN THIS COMPETITION WITH CHINA FOR DOMINANCE.

DURING THE PANDEMIC, WHEN THERE WAS THE BLAME OF CHINA FOR COVID, LED TO THIS OUTBREAK IN REPORTS OF VIOLENCE, THAT MOMENT HAS SUBSIDED.

THE THING I AM AFRAID OF AT THIS MOMENT AND WHAT I WORRY ABOUT IN THE TRAJECTORY OF THE ASIAN-AMERICANS AND THEIR EXPERIENCE IN AMERICA, EVERY TIME, RIGHT NOW IT IS KIND OF IN VOGUE FOR POLITICIANS OF BOTH PARTIES TO BE BELLA COST IN THEIR LANGUAGE ABOUT CHINA.

I THINK THERE ARE LEGITIMATE REASONS FOR THAT.

EVERY TIME I HEAR THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE, I FEEL THE RACIAL SUSPICION GROWING .

THE THING I OR A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE ASKED ABOUT , AND MY OPTIMISTIC ?

I HAVE TO BE OPTIMISTIC.

THAT IS THE STORY OF AMERICA AND THIS PUSH AND PULL THAT YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT BUT I AM WORRIED >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.