JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want, I want to move to the -- I will be revisiting this again, this subject obviously, but I want to move to the main subject, this -- letús call it a MAGA meltdown over Jeffrey Epstein.

Itús the first time weúve really seen some nausea-inducing gyrations on the battleship that is MAGA, the political battleship that is MAGA.

Meredith, your newspaper reported just in the last 24 hours that Donald Trump contributed to a, quote, bawdy, thatús The Wall Street Journal and Shakespeare, Shakespearean word, for what clearly was contained in this birthday book, contributed a passage to the -- in Epsteinús honor.

Hereús part of what Trump wrote.

Itús a kind of a dialogue between the two men.

I will not be performing this.

Iúll simply be reading this.

This is according to The Wall Street Journal.

Donald, we have certain things in common.

Jeffrey.

Jeffrey, yes, we do, come to think of it.

Donald, enigmas never age.

Have you noticed that?

Jeffrey, as a matter of fact, it was clear to me the last time I saw you.

Donald, a pal is a wonderful thing.

Happy birthday and may every day be another wonderful secret.

Deal with that, as you will.

Meredith, tell us about this story that The Wall Street Journal just published.

And if you donút mind, itús a pretty big assignment, but could you run through what we know about the relationship between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein, just the facts of what we know?

MEREDITH MCGRAW, White House Reporter, The Wall Street Journal: Yes.

Well, you know what?

Iúll start there.

Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein had an over decades-long relationship.

They both ran in very elite and wealthy circles in New York.

And theyúve been photographed many times at similar parties.

Weúve seen them on video together.

And we know that Donald Trump was also listed on the manifest for Jeffrey Epsteinús private plane going from Palm Beach, where they both have homes, had homes, and to New York City.

And we know that at least one of Jeffrey Epsteinús victims was actually employed at Mar-a-Lago, Donald Trumpús private club, when she was recruited into Epsteinús circles.

But there was also at some point a falling out around 2004.

This was a couple years before Epstein was first arrested.

And this reporting that my colleagues have is about this birthday letter presentation that was part of a bunch of different documents that were in a leather-bound book that they reviewed the documents and it was in celebration of Epsteinús 50th birthday party.

It hasnút been reported before and we know that the president did not want this letter to get out there.

But now that it is, the president is suing now Dow Jones and News Corp, which I work for at The Wall Street Journal.

And at the same time, it is just fueling, itús adding more fuel to the fire, I think, for this story, in general, when Trump really wanted it to go away.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

No, I mean, Trump has definitively wanted it to go away.

Just watch with me for a second Trump talking about this episode, the broader episode, just the other day.

REPORTER: Why do you think your supporters in particular have been so interested in the Epstein story?

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. President: I donút understand.

REPORTER: And so upset about how itús been handled.

Why do you think that is?

DONALD TRUMP: I donút understand it.

Heús dead for a long time.

He was never a big factor in terms of life.

I donút understand what the interest or what the fascination is.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Who among us is a big factor in life?

STEPHEN HAYES: Thatús very well put.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Thank you.

Well, youúll join my philosophy panel after this, after this discussion.

The -- but, Steve, frame this out for us.

Trump is in a pickle in a way that he hasnút been before with at least some of his own followers.

Those same followers, I would note, have today gone after The Wall Street Journal for this reporting and are -- have found their comfortable spot, if you will, going after the media.

But give us your framing of this.

Youúve been following MAGA since its inception.

STEPHEN HAYES: Yes.

I mean, I think if you go back, you mentioned earlier some of the conspiracies that Donald Trump has gotten his base to go along with or to get enthusiastic about.

You know, you can go back to Rafael Cruz, you can go back to the 2020 election, the revisionist history on January 6th as aggressive prosecutors and the FBI and Antifa.

And heús been successful in convincing his hardcore base to believe him despite the fact that, you know, on January 6th, we thought we saw tens of thousands of hours of video of what happened.

The reason I think this is different and the reason I think this is problematic for him in a way those others werenút, is in all of -- virtually all of the other conspiracies he has either spun or embraced or amplified, they had a bad guy and the bad guy was them, with a capital T. And this was Donald Trump, the populace, the demagogueús way of saying to his followers, theyúre the bad people.

Iúm on your side.

And look at all these things that they have done to you.

What makes this difficult, I think, for Trump is, in this case, he and his supporters, his advisers have been hyping this for years.

They are the ones who are blocking this information about Jeffrey Epstein.

Theyúre the ones who enabled him.

And then the Trump administration comes into office and these very same people suddenly say, the deep state was right, there really wasnút much here.

This is -- all of these things that weúve said about this particular thing turn out to have been wrong.

And thatús a pretty stunning moment for a populist demagogue.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And disorienting, Michael, for his followers to see Dan Bongino now on the inside at the FBI attacking the attorney general for saying that the thing that heús been talking about all along really didnút happen.

MICHAEL SHEARER: The attorney general who just a couple months earlier had released a angry letter to the FBI director demanding that these records be on her desk and accusing the FBI of trying to conceal these records.

She now says thereús no need to release any of those records.

I think that -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Although now she has, per Trumpús orders, asked the judge to release the grand jury.

MICHAEL SHEARER: Grand jury.

But that is a very small subset of what the federal government has in his possession about what -- about Jeffrey Epstein.

And it is not -- like the grand jury testimony was not what she was demanding the FBI turnover.

She was demanding what she described as thousands of pages of documents, computer hard drives that were gathered as part of that investigation.

And itús evident, as the Wall Street Journalús reported, that this birthday letter was part of what was the investigation found.

So, you know, Senator Durbin from Illinois came out today and said that heús been informed that FBI officials who were reviewing these documents were told to flag any mention of Trump up the chain of command as they went over it.

So, presumably, itús quite possible Trumpús name shows up in other records of Jeffrey Epstein.

So, this may not be the end.

And so that hard turn, you know, is jarring.

I think it should be said that like we know a lot about the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein.

I mean, thereús more than 200 people whoúve gotten settlements, victims whoúve gotten settlements.

You know, we have testimony from them and others about accomplices.

His former girlfriend, Ghislaine Maxwell, is in prison because of the crime she committed with relation to him.

Thereús a lot we donút know, but the scope of what he did was enormously serious.

And so I donút think itús wrong to be curious about, you know, what else was going on with Jeffrey Epstein.

What is odd is that as soon as that curiosity bumped up against Trump, it seems like the administration turned on a dime.

And that, I think, is whatús problematic.

Theyúre going to try and say, well, weúre going to get the grand jury testimony.

You know, that could take months if the judge allows it, but Iúm not sure that thatús going to put this story to bed.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Leigh Ann, I want to talk about truth and lies and the unwillingness of some of Trumpús most fervent supporters to deal with -- using January 6th as one example -- deal with images right before their eyes.

Itús just a very interesting -- itús ultimately a small point, but itús a very interesting point in The Wall Street Journal piece.

Heús -- Trump is believed to, according to The Wall Street Journal, drawn a bawdy picture in this book.

Trump has come out and said, I donút drop pictures.

Almost immediately, the internet is flooded with images of Trumpús pictures usually of skyscrapers in his buildings.

But he literally said, I donút draw doodles, or I donút draw pictures, and then here they are.

I mean, the question is at what point does it break open?

At what point do people among his followers say, at least on that question, maybe heús not on the level?

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: So, I think that for most of his followers, it doesnút.

The follower -- the MAGA part of the party that is furious about this are not necessarily partisans.

They are the people who are anti-establishment, who have been -- feel like they have been wronged and do not just -- or do not trust the system, anti-institutionalists.

And the reason they found a savior in Donald Trump is because he promised to be different, to break everything and to be the truth teller.

And that is why theyúre behind Donald Trump.

And so -- and thatús what the anger about it from this small segment of that is coming from, that Trump promised so much and he is doing the exact same thing that previous government agencies and previous administrations have done.

I shouldnút say administrations, but entities, government entities have done.

And so -- but I think that is a very small segment of the Trump coalition.

Most of the Trump coalition is going to come to his defense.

Itús incredible, itús really been a test case watching all of this play out.

Donald Trump says, we will release the credible information.

Now, all of a sudden, you know, this was a few days ago, all of a sudden the online, the talking point was heús going to release all the credible information.

They include the word credible, which, of course, who determines what is credible, and so using that as justification that he is still this truth teller whoús going to uncover.

We saw that again last night with the grand jury stuff and the attacking of The Wall Street Journal.

So, itús like an instant reaction that I donút know if someone like pushes some switch and a bat signal is sent out, but itús a really fascinating case study.

I mean, even in House Republicansú new resolution to call on the Justice Department to unleash this information, which they did because theyúre getting so much pressure from constituents to do so, they have the same exact language as Trump used, release credible information.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

ANN LEIGH CALDWELL: And so they find ways to justify.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Will you watch with me for one minute?

This is Tucker Carlson speaking about this controversy and about his frustration.

TUCKER CARLSON, Conservative Commentator: The fact that the U.S. government, the one that I voted for, refused to take my question seriously and instead said, case closed, shut up, conspiracy theorist, was too much for me.

And I donút think the rest of us should be satisfied with that.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Steve, itús a very durable movement, MAGA, in many ways, but with a pronounced weakness for conspiracy theories.

Try to imagine out where this is going, because I canút figure it out for the life of me.

STEPHEN HAYES: Yes.

I mean, we all make predictions like this at our own peril, right?

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

STEPHEN HAYES: Iúve been wrong about these things many times before.

But, look, I think this is what Tucker just framed is that the challenge when the anti-establishment forces become the establishment, and thatús what youúre seeing here.

And the question is whether sort of the MAGA crowd will go along with that.

And there are certainly signs that thereús resistance, pretty strong resistance, stronger than weúve seen before, I think, for the reasons that weúve discussed.

The remaining question is whether the Trump administration can give them another target or refocus their attention.

Theyúre trying now.

Now, Donald Trump is saying, this is the Jeffrey Epstein hoax perpetrated by the same Democrats and people that you brought me to power to fight.

The Wall Street Journal and the media will be another target, inevitably.

You know, thereús reason to believe that he will be successful in doing this because his people want to be with him.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Meredith, I have to ask you this.

This is one of the -- one of the aspects of this thatús surprising to me is that we are not talking about possible revelations that Mike Pence was secretly directing pornography films, right?

This is Donald Trump of the Access Hollywood tapes, of the lifestyle that he has bragged about for decades.

Why is this so surprising at all?

Is it that the anti-elitist was actually hanging around in elitist circles?

MEREDITH MCGRAW: I mean, I donút know if itús that surprising.

I think weúve known about Donald Trumpús relationship with Jeffrey Epstein for years.

Weúve obviously heard about his Access Hollywood tapes that, you know, consumed the end of the 2016 election.

And yet weúre at this moment where when the story came out, it really seemed like it was a galvanizing force among his supporters.

And instead of focusing on the content of the reporting or whatever was revealed, it was -- they called it a hoax, like you said, and they were very quick to dismiss it.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Is there anxiety?

Youúre in the White House every day, every week.

Is there anxiety in the White House about this reporting?

MEREDITH MCGRAW: I think at the beginning of the week, officials were trying to work through this in real time, and I think -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Oh, they were actually lobbying your bosses directly.

MEREDITH MCGRAW: Well -- and they were, you know, hoping that they could put all of this behind them.

But I do think that weúre seeing people like Laura Loomer, who is a right wing, you know, Trump supporter, activist, people who were calling for these Epstein files to come out and who were really pushing for the Trump administration to bring forth more evidence, are suddenly saying, whoa, letús hold up.

MICHAEL SHEARER: I think itús important to put this in a broader political frame.

You know, Trump was powerful in the last election because he got people who donút pay attention to politics to vote for him.

These are not political people.

They donút care.

They think Washingtonús all rotten.

They donút care much about it on a day-to-day basis.

There was an A.P.

poll this week that asked the question, is your life better, your personal life better under President Trump?

And the numbers were remarkably low, even among Republicans, it was closer to 50 percent.

Nationwide, it was around -- it was under 30 percent.

Heús just passed the big beautiful bill, which is dramatically unpopular.

He is headed into a budget season, which is going to be a whole bunch of fights about cutting things, like CBP and NIH and stuff like that, which are also not super popular for him.

And then he has within that environment this MAGA wound that he has to deal with.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Leigh Ann, let me go to you for the -- I want you to make your point, but I also have one other question for you, and Iúm cutting into your seconds each moment.

No, the -- itús just Congress is interesting.

You cover Congress.

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: Yes.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Congress is interesting here because they ultimately seem to line up.

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: Yes.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The Republicans line up no matter what.

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: Yes.

But when Speaker Mike Johnson came out the other day and said that there needs to be more transparency, if anyone bet that that was going to be the thing that Speaker Johnson broke with Trump on, like I hope you won big.

But itús a testament of how much pressure some of these members of Congress were already getting on this issue.

And while itús probably not going to have any impact in the midterm elections, I was speaking to a Trump -- a person close to the Trump administration who said that this could hurt Trumpús brand and the brand could have a trickledown effect on how people view the Republican Party.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, weúre going to have to leave it there.

I want to thank our guests for joining me.

Steve, you can keep the mug.

And thank you at home for watching us.