>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> WHEN YOU START A WAR, YOU HAVE TO KNOW YOU CAN WIN THE WAR.

YOU DON'T START A WAR AGAINST SOMEBODY 20 TIMES YOUR SIZE AND HOPE PEOPLE GIVE YOU MISSILES.

>> AS RUSSIA CONTINUES TO TARGET CIVILIANS, PRESIDENT TRUMP AGAIN BLAMES UKRAINE FOR THE WAR.

WE GET A VIEW FROM A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT IN KYIV .

>> AFTER TWO YEARS OF FIGHTING, SUDAN FACES THE GREATEST HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IN THE WORLD.

I WILL ASK ONE ANALYST IF THERE IS ANY HOPE FOR PEACE .

>> ALSO.

>> CITIZENS UNITED SAID CORPORATIONS CAN CREATE A SUPER PACK.

>> AND NOW CORPORATIONS CAN FUND ELECTIONS .

>> THE DARK MONEY GAME.

A FILMMAKER AND JOURNALIST INVESTIGATES THE HIDDEN WORLD OF CAMPAIGN-FINANCE .

>> I THINK IT IS PART OF THE DANGEROUS AND PERILOUS TIMES WE ARE LOOKING AT.

>> WHEN THE GRAPHIC NOVEL "MOUSE" WAS BANNED FROM TENNESSEE SCHOOLS IN 2022, WE SPOKE TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT ERASING HISTORY.

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS , SYLVIA A PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J BLUSH IN HER , THE FILM AND FOUNDATION.

SETON J ALVIN AND THE CHARLES ROSENBLUM ROSENBLUM, PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES AND OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY CATS AND JEFF ROBBERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU .

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.

I'M IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIAN.

UKRAINE IS REELING FROM A MASSIVE RUSSIAN ATTACK ON CIVILIANS.

MISSILES STRUCK THE HEART OF THE CITY KILLING ALMOST THREE DOZEN UKRAINIANS.

THE GOVERNMENT IN KYIV REPORTS MISSILES WERE EQUIPPED WITH CLUSTER MUNITIONS TO MAXIMIZE CASUALTIES.

A PARAMEDIC DESCRIBES WALKING IN STREAMS OF BLOOD TO TREAT THE VICTIMS .

>> I RAN OUT OF THERMAL BLANKETS BECAUSE WE USED THEM TO COVER THE DEAD.

THERE WERE MANY DEAD.

WE HAD NOTHING ELSE TO COVER THEM.

I USED ALL THE BLANKETS I HAD IN MY BACKPACK AND MEDICAL KIT.

MY COLLEAGUES CAME AND BROUGHT MORE THERMAL BLANKETS BUT IT WAS STILL NOT ENOUGH.

>> THE ATTACK PROMPTED OUTRAGE ACROSS THE WORLD.

RUSSIA CLAIMED IT WAS TARGETING A MILITARY COMMAND CENTER.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS, HE WAS TOLD RUSSIA MADE A MISTAKE WHILE BLAMING PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY FOR THE CONTINUATION OF THE WAR.

HOW DOES UKRAINE NAVIGATE A FRAUGHT RELATIONSHIP WITH THE WHITE HOUSE AMID ONGOING RUSSIAN ATTACKS?

WE HAVE THE CHAIR OF THE FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE AT THE PARLIAMENT THERE AND HE JOINS THE PROGRAM FROM KYIV.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

WE ALSO HEARD THE PRESIDENT CONTINUE TO CRITICIZE PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY FROM THE OVAL OFFICE YESTERDAY WHEN HE WAS ASKED ABOUT THE LATEST STRIKE AND HE SAID THAT PRESIDENT BILOTTA ZELINSKI GOES ON TO CONTINUE TO WANT TO PURCHASE MORE MISSILES AND ASK FOR THE UNITED STATES.

AND SAID, WHEN YOU START A WAR, YOU HAVE TO KNOW YOU CAN WIN THE WAR.

AND AS YOU HEARD FROM THE INTRODUCTION, CLEARLY, HE IS SPEAKING ABOUT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY WHEN HE IS BLAMING UKRAINE FOR THE WAR.

HE GOES ON TO SAY THAT YOU DON'T START A WAR AGAINST SOMEBODY 20 TIMES YOUR SIZE AND HOPE THAT PEOPLE GIVE YOU MISSILES.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS CONTINUED STANCE BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES?

>> OF COURSE, WE STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH SUCH STATEMENTS.

THEY DON'T CORRESPOND TO THE TRUTH.

THE TRUTH IS THAT RUSSIA HAS STARTED THE WAR OF AGGRESSION AGAINST UKRAINE IN THE YEAR 2014 UNDER THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.

AND LATER ON, IT WAS MR. TRUMP'S ADMINISTRATION.

MR. TRUMP DOESN'T SAY THAT HE CAN BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONTINUATION OF THE RUSSIAN WAR AGAINST UKRAINE.

OUR CLOSEST PARTNER AND FRIEND HAS ALWAYS VOTED IN SUPPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS AND THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

AND SOVEREIGNTY AND TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY.

ONE RESOLUTION WAS SPECIFICALLY DEVOTED TO AGGRESSION AGAINST UKRAINE .

AND THE UNITED STATES WAS ONE OF THE SPONSORS OF THE RESOLUTION AND STRONGLY SUPPORTED THESE .

AND I HOPE THAT THE U. S. , THE PRESIDENT, WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THIS TRAJECTORY.

>> THE COMMENTS FROM THE PRESIDENT YESTERDAY CAME ABOUT 24 HOURS LESS THAN PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY APPEARING ON 60 MINUTES, A U. S. PROGRAM HERE, WHERE HE CONTINUED TO SHARE HIS VIEWS , THAT RUSSIAN VIEWS AND RUSSIAN TALKING POINTS HAVE BEEN PREVALENT IN THIS ADMINISTRATION AND IN PARTICULAR, HE SAYS SPECIFICALLY, HE SAYS RUSSIAN NARRATIVES ARE PREVAILING IN THE UNITED STATES .

LISTEN TO WHAT ELSIE SAID?

>> IT IS A SHIFT IN TONE AND A SHIFT IN REALITY REALLY.

A SHIFT IN REALITY.

AND I DON'T WANT TO ENGAGE IN ALTERED REALITY BEING PRESENTED TO ME YOUR FIRST AND FOREMOST, WE DID NOT LAUNCH AN ATTACK TO START THE WAR .

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT IS SOMEHOW JUSTIFYING PUTIN'S ACTIONS .

>> HE IS WALKING A TIGHT ROPE.

SIMILAR COMMENTS HE MADE SPARKED THE PRESIDENT AT THE TIME, TO A WRAPPED AT HIM AND THAT DISASTROUS OVAL OFFICE MEETING BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND WE SAW JD VANCE THERE AS WELL.

AND ULTIMATELY PUT A PAUSE ON THE TERRY AID AND INTELLIGENCE THAT HAS SINCE BEEN LIFTED ON UKRAINE .

ARE YOU WORRIED AT ALL?

I UNDERSTAND WHY HE IS TRYING TO CLEAR THE STATE RECORD AND FACTS.

WHAT ARE YOU THAT TRYING TO DO THIS, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY COULD END UP DOING MORE SHORT-TERM HARM TO UKRAINE ?

>> THE TRUTH IS WE CONTINUE TO BE CLOSE ALLIES.

UNITED STATES AND UKRAINE.

AND WITH FRIENDS, THERE CAN BE A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION.

AND WE NEED TO BE CLEAR AND HONEST WITH WHAT WE AGREE ON OR WHAT WE MIGHT DISAGREE ON.

AND I WOULD TELL THE PRESIDENT IN A DIGNIFIED WAY ABOUT THE DEFENSE.

WE ARE DEPENDENT ON MILITARY AID FROM THE UNITED STATES.

FOR US, IT IS ABOUT SAVING LIVES.

NOT JUST SOLDIERS BUT CIVILIAN LIVES.

WHEN OUR PRESIDENT IS TALKING ABOUT MISSILES, HE ALSO MEANS AIR DEFENSE WITH AMERICAN AIR DEFENSE AND AMERICAN MISSILES WHICH RIGHT NOW HELP TO SAVE LIVES OF UKRAINIANS IN DIFFERENT CITIES.

AND I THINK THAT WE SHOULD JUST BE VERY SINCERE WITH EACH OTHER AND I HOPE THAT THE UNITED STATES WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE BECAUSE IT IS IN THE BEST NATIONAL INTEREST OF THE UNITED STATES .

>> WHAT IS THE STATE OF RELATIONS BETWEEN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION NOW AND UKRAINE AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AND TERMS OF ANY COMMITTEE CASE AND BETWEEN TOP ADVISORS ?

>> FIRST OF ALL, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, IT IS DIRECT MEDICATION BETWEEN BOTH PRESIDENTS.

AS THE EXPERIENCE DEMONSTRATES, WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAVE FACE- TO-FACE MEETINGS, THEY CAN CLEAR THE AIR THEY CAN FIND A COMPROMISE.

IT IS CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT.

OUR PRESIDENT THAT IS TRYING TO BE RESPECTFUL TOWARD PRESIDENT TRUMP AND TRYING TO BE CONSTRUCTIVE AND AT THE SAME TIME, TRYING TO BE OUTSPOKEN AND SINCERE ABOUT OUR NEEDS AND OUR POSITION .

>> YOU HAVE BEEN PRETTY OUTSPOKEN ABOUT THE CRITICISM YOU HAVE LEVELED TOWARD STEVE WITKOFF WHO IS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ENVOY AND CLEARLY ONE OF HIS CLOSEST AND MOST TRUSTED ADVISORS.

NOT ONLY AS IT RELATES TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE BUT OTHER GEOPOLITICAL FOREIGN POLICY AFFAIRS INCLUDING THE NUCLEAR DEAL THAT HE WANTS TO REOPEN AND START COMMUNICATIONS ON , POTENTIALLY WITH IRAN.

AS IT RELATES TO THIS WAR, STEVE WITKOFF JUST CAME BACK FROM ANOTHER MEETING WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN IN RUSSIA AND THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTS THAT MEMES SHOWED MR. STEVE WITKOFF SHAKING HANDS WITH MR. PUTIN AND THE CARNAGE IN SUMY AS A BACKDROP.

AND THAT LED YOU TO WRITE AN OP- ED SAYING THAT TRUMP'S HAYES TO EXIT UKRAINE IS ENCOURAGING THE RUSSIAN DICTATOR TO PURSUE HIS MOST MAXIMALIST WAR AIMS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK PUTIN'S ULTIMATE GOAL IS HERE AS FAR AS THIS REPORT HE HAS DEVELOPED WITH STEVE WITKOFF?

HAS HE TURNED HIM TO BE MORE SOME OF THE ATTIC WITH RUSSIA ?

>> THE TRUTH IS THERE ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN AN ENTOURAGE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

SOME BLACK DIPLOMATIC EXPERIENCE WHICH MAY EXPLAIN THE REASON WHY THEY MAKE STATEMENTS WHICH ARE TOTALLY UNTRUE AND ACCEPTABLE FOR UKRAINE.

AS FOR MR. STEVE WITKOFF, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO HIM, AT THE SAME TIME, HE MIGHT BE INADVERTENTLY TRYING TO PUSH PRO-RUSSIAN NARRATIVES.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE IS A MEASURE OF NATIONAL SECURITY AFTER ALL.

BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS TAKEN DECISIONS WHICH ARE BASED ON THE INFORMATION RECEIVED AND INCLUDING MR. STEVE WITKOFF.

AND THE INFORMATION CAN INFLUENCE IN A NEGATIVE WAY, THE QUALITY OF THE DECISIONS TAKEN BY AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT.

THAT IS WHY IT IS VERY DANGEROUS .

>> I'M WONDERING HOW YOU ARE INTERPRETING THE CHANGE IN TONE, PERHAPS REALITY SETTING IN, FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO HAD CAMPAIGNED ON, EVEN IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE SECOND TERM, SAYING HE CAN FINISH THIS WAR AND BRING THIS WAR TO AN END ON DAY ONE.

CLEARLY THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED.

AND HE BECAME VERY INVOLVED WITH THE WAR IN GAZA AND SAID THAT THAT IS SOMETHING HE ALSO WANTS TO SEE COME TO AN END.

THAT DOES NOT LOOK LIKE IT IS ANYTIME SOON TO HAPPEN.

AND NOW HE HAS TURNED HIS ATTENTION TO GETTING A DEAL WITH IRAN, WHICH I BELIEVE IN THE OVAL OFFICE, HE STATED SOMETHING ABOUT GETTING BAD RESULTS QUICKLY.

DO YOU WORRY AT ALL THAT THE PRESIDENT IS LOSING ATTENTION AND FOCUS ON THE WAR IN UKRAINE AND PERHAPS THAT COULD BENEFIT VLADIMIR PUTIN ?

>> IT PRESIDENT TRUMP LOSES FOCUS ON UKRAINE , THAT WILL BE NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES FOR UKRAINE.

IT WOULD BE EXTREMELY DEANDRA'S.

WE UNDERSTAND THIS.

I HOPE IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

OF COURSE MR. TRUMP'S PROMISES AND STATEMENTS ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL IN REGARDS TO FINISHING THE WAR IN 24 HOURS, WE TOOK IT IS POLITICAL RHETORIC.

WE KNOW IT IS NOT REALISTIC.

PRESIDENT TRUMP ALSO PROMISED TO HAVE A CEASE-FIRE BEFORE EASTER.

EASTER IS A WEEK AWAY.

I DON'T BELIEVE HE WILL BE ABLE TO DO IT .

BUT IT IS NOT HIS FAULT.

A MAJOR OBSTACLE IS PUTIN.

AND I HOPE VERY SOON THAT MR. TRUMP WILL UNDERSTAND THAT PUTIN IS NOT A PERSON WITH WHO HE CAN MAKE A DEAL.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY OUT OF THE QUESTION.

PUTIN IS OBSESSED WITH DESTROYING UKRAINE.

HE IS FIXATED ON OUR DESTRUCTION .

THAT IS WHY IT MAKES NO SENSE TO SIT AT THE TABLE OF NEGOTIATIONS WITH A CRIMINAL AND TERRORIST, PUTIN.

>> WE KNOW TO THIS DAY, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS NOT STATED WHAT YOU JUST DID, THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN IS A MAJOR OBSTACLE TO ACHIEVING PEACE IN THIS WAR.

THANK YOU FOR THE TIME .

>> IT HAS BEEN TWO YEARS IN CIVIL WAR ERUPTED INTO DAN CALLING IT THE WORST MILITARY IN CRISIS IN THE WORLD.

TENS OF THOUSANDS ARE DEAD AND 12 MILLION ARE DISPLACED WITH HALF OF THE POPULATION FACING EXTREME LEVELS OF HUNGER .

IT IS AN ENTIRELY MAN-MADE CRISIS, THE RESULT OF A BRUTAL WAR BETWEEN ARMED FORCES AND THE RSF MILITIA.

OVER THE WEEKEND, THE RSF SAID IT SEIZED CONTROL OF A MASSIVE CAMPER DISPLACED PEOPLE.

UNITARIAN GROUPS ANNOUNCED THE ATTACK AS AN ASSAULT ON THE MOST VULNERABLE CIVILIANS.

WE HAVE A SUDANESE POLITICAL ANALYST JOINING US ON THE PROGRAM.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

I WISH IT WAS UNDER BETTER CIRCUMSTANCES.

TWO YEARS NOW.

GIVE US A SENSE IF WE ARE ANY CLOSER IN YOUR VIEW OF SEEING A RESOLUTION TO THIS HORRIFIC TRAGEDY TRAGEDY.

>> UNFORTUNATELY, THE ANSWER IS NO.

WE HAVE SEEN THE INCREASING REGIONAL POWERS AND BECOMING VERY COMFORTABLE AT MANAGING THE CONFLICT.

WE HAVE NOT SEEN ANY NEW IDEAS OR SEEING THE RIGHT LEVERAGE ON THE TABLE.

AND THE REALITY IS THAT THIS IS A WAR THAT STARTED BETWEEN TWO FACTIONS OF THE MILITARY AND HAS NOW METASTASIZED TO DIFFERENT GROUPS AND DIFFERENT TRIBES AND IN DIFFERENT AREAS OF THE COUNTRY.

AND IT MAKES IT INFINITELY HARDER TO THINK OF A RESOLUTION THAT COULD HOLD .

>> WE SAW THE SUDANESE ARMY TAKE CONTROL OF THE CAPITAL BACK IN MARCH.

THE RSF HAS CONTROL OF THE RESIDENTIAL PALACE AND THE AIRPORT.

WHAT IS THE LATEST SITUATION ?

WHAT POWER DOES THE TRANSIT -- RSF HAVE AND HOLD?

>> VERY LITTLE.

THE ARMED FORCES MANAGED TO PUSH OUT THE RSF FROM THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE TRI-CITY AREA AND LARGE PARTS OF THE WESTERN TRI-CITY AREA WHICH MEANS THE ARMY OF SUDANESE HAS CONTROL OF MOST OF THE CAPITAL AND SURROUNDING AREAS.

THIS HAS LED TO SOMETHING OF COMPLACENCY ABOUT GOING TO SEND TROOPS AND REINFORCEMENTS TO THE CAPITAL TO THE WEST OF THE COUNTRY WHERE THE RSF IS CURRENTLY RAISING IDP CAMPS AND COMMITTING MASS ATROCITIES.

AND WHAT WE ARE SEEING WITH THE SUDANESE ARMED FORCES TAKING BENTHIC CAPITAL IS A RECONFIGURATION OF THE BATTLE OF POWER IN THE COUNTRY.

THE SUDANESE FORCES IN THE CENTER AND THEN THE RSF TRYING TO TAKE CONTROL OF THE WESTERN PART OF THE COUNTRY.

THE CONCERN IS PEOPLE STILL WON'T BE ABLE TO GO BACK TO KHARTOUM BECAUSE IT IS UNSAFE.

THERE IS NO ELECTRICITY OR WATER OR SAFETY.

THE ARMY AND ITS ALLIED MILITIAS ARE EFFECTIVELY KILLING OFF PEOPLE THAT THEY HAVE SUSPECTED TO HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH THE RSF.

MEANWHILE, THEY LET THE RSF GO AND REINFORCE THE REST OF THEIR TROOPS CAUSING MASSIVE PROBLEMS FOR CIVILIANS AND SURROUNDING AREAS .

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK, WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES?

WHAT HAVE WE SEEN SINCE THE SUDANESE ARMY TOOK BACK CONTROL OF KHARTOUM IN MARCH?

WHAT HAS THE IMPACT BEEN FOR CIVILIANS?

YOU JUST LAID OUT THE STRUGGLE THAT HAS ENSUED SINCE THEN .

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR CIVILIANS ON THE GROUND ?

>> PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET BACK TO SOME SEMBLANCE OF NORMALCY.

THOSE THAT LIVE IN THE CAPITAL.

ARMED FORCES HAVE BEEN ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO COME BACK TO THE CAPITAL.

PEOPLE WORKING AT THE COMMUNITY LEVEL HAVE TRIED TO REINSTALL ELECTRICITY AND GET WATER AND STATIONS PUMPING.

THE RSF FORCES WILL NOT JUST LET KHARTOUM GO TO THE ARMY.

THEY HAVE SHOWN THEY ARE WILLING TO CONTINUE THEIR FIGHT AGAINST MANY CIVILIANS AND ARE USING DRONES TO ATTACK POWER STATIONS AND WATER STATIONS , NOT JUST IN KHARTOUM BUT DIFFERENT CITIES AROUND THE CAPITAL THAT FEED INTO THE CAPITAL.

WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT IT MAY NOT BE SAFE OR A VIABLE PLACE TO LIVE FOR MANY PEOPLE FOR SOME TIME WHICH IS PRECISELY THE POINT.

ELSEWHERE IN SUDAN, WE ARE SEEING PEOPLE SUFFERING THE BRUNT OF THE WAR.

WHETHER THEY ARE BEING TARGETED FROM ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER OR WHETHER THEY ARE DEALING WITH THE HUMANITARIAN IMPACT.

SUDAN WAS THE LARGEST MILITARY IN CRISIS .

THE LARGEST PROTECTION CRISIS IN THE LARGEST HUNGER CRISIS ALL ROLLED INTO ONE.

AND THEY HAVE BEEN INSUFFICIENT IN RESPONSE .

>> AS NOTED, THE RSF SEIZED CONTROL OF A MAJOR DISPLACED PERSONS CAMP SUNDAY.

WHAT MORE DO WE KNOW ABOUT THAT?

>> THE RSF HAS TAKEN OVER THE CAMP --THAT YOU WILL REMEMBER AUGUST OF LAST YEAR, THE UNITED NATIONS DECLARED THAT THEY SUDDENLY HAVE TAKEN ROOT THERE AND OTHER PLACES IN THE NORTHERN AREA AS WELL.

THE RSF SAID THEY HAVE ALSO TAKEN OVER ANOTHER IDP CAMP.

WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT THE FRAMING OF THE RSF IS THAT IT VERY MUCH SHOWS THE GENOCIDAL INTENT.

THEY HAVE CALLED THESE LONG- ESTABLISHED IDP CAMPS.

MILITARY BASES, THEY SAY EFFECTIVELY, THERE IS NO INNOCENCE IN THE MILITARY BASES AND EFFECTIVELY EVERYONE IS FAIR GAME .

WHAT THIS MEANS IS WE HAVE SEEN VAST NUMBERS OF PEOPLE, UP TO 400, DECLARED DEAD TODAY BY THESE GROUPS.

WE HAVE SEEN MAIN CHARACTERS AND MAIN ACTORS IN EMERGENCY RESPONSE ROOMS AND OTHER MUTUAL AID GROUPS THAT HAVE BEEN HOLDING RESISTANCE TO THE RSF SIEGE AND HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES, ET CETERA.

IT IS AN EXTREMELY DESPERATE SITUATION TAKING PLACE AT A TIME WHEN THE WORLD IS LOOKING ELSEWHERE WHEN THERE IS NOT THE REQUISITE ATTENTION ON WHAT IS HAPPENING .

>> WE KNOW THAT THE RSF LAUNCHED AN ATTACK ON THE LAST MAJOR TOWN UNDER SUDANESE ARMY CONTROL .

WHAT WOULD BE THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE RSF IF THEY WERE TO EVENTUALLY WIN OVER CONTROL ?

>> THE MAIN COUNTER TO THE RSF ARE THE JOINT FORCES.

IT IS NOT MUCH OF A HUGE ARMY PRESENCE THERE.

IT IS BECAUSE OF THESE FORCES THAT THEY HAVE NOT FALLEN TO THE RSF.

TO THESE GIANT FORCES, THE FIGHT IS EXISTENTIAL.

THEY KNOW THAT THE ETHNIC GROUPS, FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES WILL BE TARGETED BY THE RSF, SHOULD THE RSF TAKEOVER IN EL FASHER.

WE ARE LOOKING AT A HUGE ATROCITY IN EL FASHER AND SURROUNDING AREAS.

FOR THE RSF, IT IS VERY CLEAR.

HAVING LOST THE CENTRAL PART OF THE COUNTRY, THEY NEED TO HOLD THE ENTIRE WESTERN ORDER OF TRACK FOR WHICH HAS ACCESS TO LIBYA AND THREE COUNTRIES WHICH THEY DEEM TO BE FRIENDLY AS FAR AS HOPING THEM GET ARMS AND SUPPLIES.

THIS IS REALLY A TUSSLE FOR THE WESTERN BORDER OF SUDAN.

ONE THAT IS BORNE BY THE CIVILIANS OF THIS PART OF THE COUNTRY .

THE WERE NOT ONLY TAKING PLACE AT THE STRATEGIC LEVEL BUT AT THE LOCAL LEVELS.

AND MANY MALICIOUS ALLIES.

THERE USING THIS TO SETTLE SCORES WITH MANY COMMUNITIES IN THE SURROUNDING AREAS OF EL FASHER.

AND THIS IS WHY WE SEE THE TARGETED KILLINGS BY THE RSF IN THIS AREA.

>> THE SEXUAL VIOLENCE BEING COMMITTED AS WELL, ONE WOULD IMAGINE LARGELY UNDERREPORTED.

WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THE SCALE OF ATROCITIES REGARDING WOMEN IN PARTICULAR ?

>> WE KNOW THE PREVALENCE OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE HAS BEEN HIGH SINCE THE START OF THE WAR.

THE RSF IN PARTICULAR HAVE BEEN ACCUSED --OF A LOT OF EVIDENCE AND DOCUMENTATION AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND GIRLS AND IN SOME CASES, MEN AND BOYS AS WELL.

SOME OF THE AGES WE ARE SEEING ARE VERY YOUNG CHILDREN.

SOME INFANTS UNDER ONE-YEAR-OLD AND SOME UP TO EIGHT YEARS OLD.

VERY AND DISCRIMINATIVE APPROACH DESIGNED TO HUMILIATE AND SUBJUGATE , NOT JUST THESE WOMEN BUT THE COMMUNITIES AS WELL.

THIS HAS BEEN A TACTIC USED FOR DECADES AND THE RSF IS CERTAINLY USING IT NOW.

LOCAL GROUPS AND NATIONAL LEVEL WOMEN'S RIGHTS GROUPS HAVE RELEASED SEVERAL REPORTS THAT HAVE LED --FOR EXAMPLE, THE U. N. REPERTOIRE ON SEXUAL VIOLENCE TO SAY THAT THIS WAR IS BEING WAGED ON MILLIONS OF WOMEN'S AND CHILDREN.

AND BECAUSE THERE IS NO CONSEQUENCE, ANY HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES AGAINST ANYONE IN SUDAN FOR DECADES, WE WILL CONTINUE TO SEE THIS .

THAT IS WHY JUSTICE MECHANISMS AND THE END OF IMPUNITY WILL BE CENTRAL TO STEMMING THE TIDE OF ALL SORTS OF VIOLENCE INCLUDING GENDER- BASED VIOLENCE .

>> WE KNOW THERE HAVE BEEN MULTIPLE PARTIES THE LAST TWO YEARS TRYING TO BRING ABOUT SOME PEACE NEGOTIATIONS AND TALKS, TO NO AVAIL.

I HAVE TO ASK YOU, BEFORE WE CONCLUDE, FOR YOU PERSONALLY, YOU LEFT SUDAN IN 2023.

WHAT HAS BEEN WATCHING THIS ALL UNFOLD FROM AFAR , AND ISSUE AN COUNTRY SO IMPORTANT, WHAT HAS THAT BEEN LIKE ?

>> DEEPLY FRUSTRATING.

IT IS QUITE CLEAR THAT NO ONE IN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS WILLING TO PUT THIS LEVERAGE ON THE TABLE TO GET THIS WORK TO STOP.

AND IT IS NOT JUST A WAR LED BY THEN BUT IT IS A GLOBAL WAR TAKING PLACE IN SUDAN.

SO MANY COUNTRIES ARE VERY MUCH EMBROILED IN THIS CONFLICT.

WE HAVE SEEN ACTORS LIKE THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES VERY MUCH AT THE FOREFRONT OF PROVIDING ARMS TO THE RSF.

THIS HAS BROUGHT ABOUT SORT OF HUMANITARIAN SITUATION BUT ALSO LEAVES COMMITTEES UNWILLING TO RESPOND.

WHAT THIS MEANS IS THAT THE COMMUNITY IN MANY WAYS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM BUT NOT FOR WHAT HAPPENS IN SUDAN AT ALL.

AND THAT FRUSTRATION I THINK IS ABOUT TO END.

WE ARE LOOKING AT THE CONFLICT HERE, BASED ON HISTORICAL PRECEDENTS COULD LAST YEARS.

ABSOLUTELY WE NEED TO FOCUS INTERNATIONAL ATTENTION ON ENDING THE CONFLICT OR SIMPLY MANAGING IT.

AND LOOKING AT THE PRODUCTIONS AND DEALING WITH THAT.

>> TWO YEARS.

A GRIM AND MORTIFYING MILESTONE HERE HERE.

HJ IT GOES BY, MORE AND MORE SUFFERING IS OCCURRING.

INNOCENT LIVES ARE LOST.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> 50 YEARS AGO THIS WEEK , THE FEDERAL ELECTION COMMISSION OPENED DOORS.

A KEY PART OF ALL GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO CORRUPT POLITICAL SPENDING EXPOSED BY THE WATERGATE SCANDAL.

AND TOOTHLESS VICTIM OF A SYSTEMATIC ATTACK ON FINANCING REFORM.

NOW A TWO PART HBO FILM SERIES " DOCUMENTS OF PERNICIOUS EFFECT OF UNLIMITED MONEY IN AMERICAN POLITICS. "

THE FILMS ARE INSPIRED BY THE INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING OF JOURNALISTS AND AUTHORS JANE MAYER.

HERE'S A LOOK AT THE TRAILER.

>> ONE WAY YOU COULD LOOK AT IT IS THAT IT IS A FAIR FIGHT.

AND THAT ALSO BOTH PARTIES ARE CORRUPT.

WHEN IT COMES TO THE POWER OF BIG BUSINESS, IT SEEMS TO BE IN.

>> PEOPLE WITH MONEY WILL ALWAYS HAVE AN ADVANTAGE, ALWAYS.

MONEY IS A WAY OF CHANGING THE RULES .

>> THE FILM'S DIRECTORS JOIN ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

WILL COME TO THE PROGRAM, BOTH OF YOU.

JANE, PEOPLE WILL LIKELY SAY THIS NAME SOUNDS FAMILIAR.

DARK MONEY AND HISTORY OF THE LIEN ERRORS AND THE RISE OF THE RADICAL RIGHT.

IN BOTH OF THESE FILMS, WE SHOULD NOTE, WHAT LED YOU IN SO MANY YEARS OF RESEARCH TO FOCUS ON DARK MONEY AND THIS TOPIC IN PARTICULAR.

?

>> FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING US ON.

I'M GLAD TO BE WITH YOU TODAY.

I WAS A REPORTER FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.

I COVERED POLITICS.

IT TOOK ME A WHILE TO REALIZE THAT THE REAL STORY WAS MONEY.

PEOPLE WONDERED , WHY IS IT THAT THE GOVERNMENT SEEMS TO BE DOING THINGS THAT THE PUBLIC DOESN'T SUPPORT?

WHY DON'T THEY DO SOMETHING ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE ?

WHY DON'T THEY DO SOMETHING ABOUT GUN CONTROL?

ALL THESE ISSUES WHERE THE PUBLIC IS ON ONE SIDE AND CONGRESS IS ON THE OTHER.

THE ANSWER I DISCOVERED, IS MONEY.

AND A LOT OF IT IS SECRET MONEY.

I THINK I SPENT FIVE YEARS ON THIS BOOK TRYING TO FOLLOW THE MONEY .

AND THERE IS JUST MORE NOW THAN EVER.

>> NEARLY 10 YEARS LATER , THERE ARE MORE AND MORE STORIES THAT YOU COULD WRITE ABOUT ON THIS ISSUE.

YOU DECIDED TO FILM THIS IN A TWO PART DOCUMENTARY.

THE FIRST PART IS CALLED " OHIO CONFIDENTIAL" AND IT IS ABOUT A CORRUPTION CASE INVOLVING THE HOUSE SPEAKER WHICH IS A THRILLER TO WATCH IN AND OF ITSELF AND RIVETING.

I DON'T KNOW IF I WANT TO SAY I ENJOYED IT.

IT IS NOT THAT ENJOYABLE BUT IT IS FASCINATING TO WATCH AND YOU TELL IT IN A COMPELLING WAY.

THE SECOND IS WEALTH OF THE WICKED WITCHES TRACING THE HISTORY OF CAMPAIGN-FINANCE.

WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO BREAK IT UP INTO THESE TWO FILMS ?

>> IT BECAME BIGGER THAN THE ORIGINAL INTENT.

I STARTED OUT TO MAKE ONE FILM AND WE DUG INTO THESE TWO SEPARATE STORIES.

THE OHIO STORY WHICH IS THE STORY MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW ABOUT, INCREDIBLE PAY TO PLAY SCANDAL IN WHICH 61 MILLION- DOLLAR SLUSH FUND RESULTS IN A $1.

3 BILLION PAYOFF ON THE BACKS OF OHIO TAXPAYERS WORK IT SEEMED LIKE SUCH AN INCREDIBLE STORY, THAT WE NEEDED TO DEVOTE A LOT OF TIME TO IT.

AND THAT, TO ME, WAS THE STORY OF WHAT IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

THEN WE FELT THAT WE REALLY NEEDED TO TELL THE STORY OF HOW WE GOT THERE AND THAT IS THE STORY WEALTH OF THE WICKED WHICH IS ALL ABOUT HOW MONEY OVERCOMES CAMPAIGN-FINANCE AND HOW THE SUPREME COURT GETS CORRUPTED AND ENDS UP ENDORSING A POLICY OF ALMOST LEGALIZED BRIBERY.

>> I BELIEVE THE OHIO STORY ITSELF WAS THE LARGEST CORRUPTION CANDLE IN THE STATE'S HISTORY.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

AND IT IS FASCINATING BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING THE FBI HAPPENED TO STUMBLE UPON.

CAN YOU GIVE US MORE OF A BACKGROUND HERE?

>> I CAN.

THEY WERE LOOKING INTO A GAMBLING MATTER.

AS A RESULT, THEY PULLED WARRANTS.

THEY WERE RUNNING WIRETAPS AND BODY WIRES ON INFORMANTS COME ON THE GAMBLING MATTER.

THEY STUMBLED INTO A LOBBYIST NAMED NEIL CLARK ON THESE TAPES, WHO WAS TALKING ABOUT A BIG KIND OF PAY TO PLAY THEME WITH LARRY HOUSEHOLDER WHO WAS ON HIS WAY TO BECOMING THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE .

SO THEY SHIFTED GEARS AND BEGAN TO FOLLOW THAT.

AND THAT BECAME THE INTERESTING PART OF THE STORY.

IT IS VERY RARE IN THIS WORLD OF CAMPAIGN-FINANCE , THAT PEOPLE GET CAUGHT DOING SOMETHING SO EXPLICITLY QUID PRO QUO.

IN THIS INSTANCE, THEY FELT THAT THEY WERE ABLE TO GET OVER.

AND ONE THING THAT ATTRACTED ME TO THE CASE, IN ADDITION TO THE OBVIOUS CORRUPTION , WAS THE FACT THAT IN THE BACKGROUND, IN BARS AND RESTAURANTS, THEY WERE ALL CHUCKLING TO EACH OTHER AND SAYING, 10 YEARS AGO, WE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH THIS.

NOW BECAUSE OF CITIZENS UNITED, IT IS ALL LEGAL.

>> THAT BRINGS ME TO MY NEXT QUESTION.

TALK ABOUT HELP REBUILD THE SUPREME COURT DECISION WAS IN 2010 RULING IN FAVOR OF CITIZENS UNITED AND HOW THAT CHANGED THE GAME .

>> IT HAS REALLY CHANGED EVERYTHING.

IT HAS OPENED THE FLOODGATES TO WHAT, IN THE PAST MIGHT HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED REIBER BASICALLY.

IT IS LEGALIZED WITH ALMOST EVERY KIND OF SPENDING ON AMERICAN POLITICS.

THE RESULTS IS , IF YOU WONDER WHY THE RICHEST MAN IN THE WORLD, ELON MUSK, IS AT THE SIDE NOW OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND HOW HE MANAGED TO SPEND SOMETHING LIKE $250 MILLION IN THE LAST ELECTION TO GET TRUMP ELECTED, THAT IS ALL LEGAL BECAUSE OF CITIZENS UNITED.

IT HAS CHANGED THE WHOLE CULTURE.

IT HAS GIVEN A GREEN LIGHT TO ALMOST AN UNIMAGINABLE AMOUNT OF MONEY.

AND GIVEN A TREMENDOUS ADVANTAGE TO THE RICHEST PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY TO CONTROL THE COUNTRY'S POLITICS.

PEOPLE ASK, WHY DOES THE GOVERNMENT NOT WORK WAX IT ACTUALLY WORKS WELL BUT ONLY FOR A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE WHO ARE THE RICHEST IN THE WORLD .

>> SOMEONE POINTED OUT TO ME THAT THE THREE RICHEST PEOPLE IN AMERICA ARE NOW WORTH MORE THAN THE BOTTOM 50% OF THE AMERICAN POPULATION .

>> THAT IS SOMETHING THAT CATCHES PEOPLE'S ATTENTION .

WHAT MAKES PEOPLE'S EYES GLAZE OVER, ALEX, ARE TERMS LIKE 501C4, SUPER PACK, GERRYMANDERING .

THEY ARE LIKE, YOU HAVE LOST ME THERE .

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS .

HOW DOES IT IMPACT ME?

WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS EXPLAINING THROUGH YOUR FILM HOW EVEN ILLEGAL ATTEMPTS AT PASSING ONE BILL, ONE PIECE OF LEGISLATION , THAT THEN DOMINOES INTO ISSUES THAT IMPACT, NOT ONLY ONE COMMUNITY, BUT THE STATE AND THE NATION.

ABORTION BECOMES AN ISSUE THAT YOU COVER AS WELL .

JUST TALK ABOUT FRAMING IT THROUGH THAT LENS .

>> AS YOU SAY, THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS.

SOMETIMES THE DETAILS ARE DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND.

BUT I THINK FUNDAMENTALLY , ALMOST ALL AMERICANS HATE THE VERY IDEA OF A BRIBE.

THE IDEA THAT SOMEBODY CAN TOSS A BUNCH OF MONEY TO SOMEBODY UNDER THE TABLE AND GET AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.

AND WHEN THE UNFAIR ADVANTAGE BASICALLY RESULTS IN LEGISLATION THAT UNDERMINES OUR HEALTHCARE OR OUR ENVIRONMENT AND ESSENTIALLY EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER THE LAW , PEOPLE START TO GET REALLY UPSET.

SO WHAT WE NEED TO FOCUS ON , AND THE REASON I JOINED FORCES WITH JANE TO TRY TO TELL THE STORY, WAS TO KIND OF DEAL WITH THE DETAILS, BUT ALSO MAKE IT EXPLICIT THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE IS SOMETHING VERY BASIC, WHICH IS LEGALIZED BRIBERY AND IT HAS TO STOP.

>> THESE ARE TACTICS THAT YOU KNOW, BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, HAVE UNDERTAKEN .

PERHAPS, AND WE LEARNED MORE OF THIS IN WEALTH OF THE WICKED, THE SECOND FILM, THAT THE JOURNEY TO GET HERE, DECADES IN THE MAKING , WAS INITIALLY PICKED UP ON BY CONSERVATIVES WHO REALIZED THEY HAD A FRIEND, A POWERFUL FRIEND, AND BIG BUSINESS.

CAN YOU GO MORE INTO THAT ASPECT?

>> BASICALLY THE BACK STORY TO THIS WAS PEOPLE WHO FELT THEY WANTED TO HAVE MORE POWER IN THE DEMOCRACY AND FELT LOCKED OUT , LIKE RELIGIOUS RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS AND ANTIABORTION ACTIVISTS AND THE MORE EXTREME PB OF THE BUSINESS WORLD THAT WANTED TO END ALL KINDS OF REGULATIONS, THEY FORMED A PACT.

THEY NEEDED EACH OTHER .

THERE WERE NOT ENOUGH VOTES BEHIND WHAT BIG BUSINESS WANTED TO DO.

AND THE ANTIABORTION ACTIVISTS AND THE RELIGIOUS ACTIVISTS NEEDED MONEY.

THEY HAD THE VOTES.

NOT THE MONEY.

BUSINESS HAD THE MONEY AND NOT THE VOTES.

THEY PRETTY MUCH FORMED AN ALLIANCE WHICH WORKED STEP-BY- STEP BY STEP.

THEY WERE VERY METHODICAL AND REALLY QUITE SMART, I HAVE TO SAY.

VERY STRATEGIC AND HOW THEY BASICALLY UNDID ALL KINDS OF CAMPAIGN-FINANCE LAWS THAT HAD BEEN PUT IN PLACE , PARTICULARLY AFTER THE WATERGATE SCANDAL, TO CONTROL CORRUPTION IN AMERICA.

THEY TOOK THEM APART AND BROUGHT ONE CASE AFTER THE NEXT AND THEY WON WITH CITIZENS UNITED.

AND NOW THIS MANY YEARS LATER, WE ARE SEEING THE RESULTS OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU KNOCKED ON ALL THE REFORMS THAT WERE MEANT TO CONTROL CORRUPTION IN AMERICAN POLITICS .

AND YOU ARE RIGHT.

BOTH PARTIES PLAY THIS GAME BECAUSE THEY BOTH HAVE TO.

THEY BOTH NEED THE MONEY NOW TO WIN.

AND THAT CORRUPTS BOTH PARTIES IN A WAY.

AND THE THING THAT WE ARE THINKING ABOUT IS, THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE THAT ONLY DEMOCRATS CARE ABOUT .

IT IS NOT A LIBERAL ISSUE.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE POLLS, OVERWHELMINGLY , AMERICANS HATE THE CITIZENS UNITED DECISION.

LIKE 90% OF THEM ARE AGAINST IT INCLUDING TONS OF CONSERVATIVES.

PEOPLE DON'T LIKE DEMOCRACY OWNED BY A VERY FEW RICH PEOPLE .

>> IT IS FUNNY THAT 90%.

90% IS THE STATISTIC ALSO WHICH SHOWS 90% OF ELECTIONS ARE WON BY PEOPLE WHO SPEND THE MOST MONEY .

>> YES.

CONNECT THE DOTS AND YOU UNDERSTAND HOW THEY GOT TO THAT POINT.

WE ONLY HAVE A FEW SECONDS LEFT.

JANE, I WAS GOING TO ASK BOTH OF YOU, IN TERMS OF SOLUTIONS, ONE THING WE HAVE SEEN IS THIS ISSUE GO FROM DARK MONEY TO COME OUT IN THE OPEN, PUBLIC, FLAUNTED IN FRONT OF THE PRESIDENT'S FACE, MONEY .

AND I'M NOT SURE IT IS TRANSPARENT FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE BUT ONE HAS TO WONDER WHERE THIS GOES FROM HERE IF SOMETHING THAT WAS FOR YEARS, THERE WERE INVESTMENTS MADE TO HIDE ALL OF THIS CORRUPTION AND TO SEE IT OUT IN THE PUBLIC, HOW WILL THAT SIT WITH VOTERS ULTIMATELY AND WHAT IMPACT WILL IT HAVE?

>> YOU ARE SO RIGHT.

DARK MONEY IS LIKE DAYLIGHT MONEY.

WE ARE LOOKING AT IT ALL OVER THE PLACE.

IT IS INTERESTING.

THE VOTERS IN WISCONSIN RECENTLY TURNED AGAINST THE AMOUNT OF SPENDING THAT ELON MUSK TRIED TO DO IN ORDER TO BUY THE SUPREME COURT SEAT HE WANTED TO INFLUENCE THERE.

I DON'T THINK IT PLAYS WELL WITH THE PUBLIC.

AND THE HISTORY OF AMERICA IS WAVES OF CORRUPTION AND REFORM .

AND I THINK WE ARE OVERDUE FOR THE REFORM.

THE PUBLIC JUST HAS TO CARE AND THEN THERE IS REFORM.

>> WE WILL BE WAITING FOR THAT REFORM .

I KNOW YOU WILL BE COVERING IT WHEN IT HAPPENS .

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

REALLY FASCINATING TWO PART SERIES.

>> THANK YOU .

>> NEXT, THE LIFE AND CAREER OF AN ACCLAIMED CARTOONIST.

A NEW DOCUMENTARY , "DISASTER IS MY NEWS" AND DIVING INTO THE PULITZER PRIZE WINNER'S WORK IN HIS RENOWNED GRAPHIC MEMOIR "MOUSE" ABOUT HIS PARENT'S EXPENSE DURING THE HOLOCAUST.

THE FILM PREMIERED ON PBS TUESDAY NIGHT AND IS NOW STREAMING ON PBS.

ORG.

WE WANT TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE CONVERSATION WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

THEY SPOKE IN 2022 WHEN "MOUSE" WAS AT THE CENTER OF CONTROVERSY AFTER BEING BANNED BY A SCHOOL BOARD IN TENNESSEE.

>> WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> A TENNESSEE BOARD OF EDUCATION REMOVED YOUR BOOK FROM THE CURRICULA A FEW WEEKS AGO AND IT HAS CAUSED GREAT CONTROVERSY AND IT HAS EVEN MADE MAUS NUMBER ONE ON THE BESTSELLER LIST.

NOW THAT YOU HAVE HAD A WEEK OR SO TO REFLECT ON IT, WHAT YOU THINK OF THIS?

>> I THINK IT IS PART OF THE DANGEROUS AND SUPERLATIVES TIMES WE ARE LIVING IN.

A LOT OF IT IS DIRECTED AT CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND PART OF IT IS DIRECTED AGAINST NON- GENDER NORMATIVE PEOPLE'S BOOKS.

IT IS AMAZING HOW OFTEN COMICS COME UP AS A PROBLEM.

IT USED TO BE THE COMICS WERE BURNED IN 1954 WHEN THEY WERE AFRAID THEY WERE CAUSING JUVENILE DELINQUENCY.

AND NOW THANKS TO MAUS, IT IS PART OF MOST CURRICULA OR GRAPHIC NOVELS, AS THEY ARE CALLED OR WITHIN THE SCOPE AND THE SCHOOL BOARD SEEMS TO BE FOLLOWING THE AGENDA CONSCIOUSLY.

IF I WANT TO BE GENEROUS, UNCONSCIOUSLY, OF MOMS FOR FREEDOM OR LIBERTY OR WHATEVER.

TURNING THIS INTO AN ISSUE OF PARENTS RIGHTS AND EDUCATION AND MAKING SURE CHILDREN ARE PREPARED FOR THE WORLD THAT IS KIND OF BARRELING AT THEM.

>> AFTER THE CONTROVERSY CORRUPTED OVER THE REMOVAL OF YOUR BOOK FROM THE CURRICULA, THE SCHOOL BOARD IN TENNESSEE ISSUED A STATEMENT .

I WOULD LIKE TO READ IT TO YOU AND GET YOUR REACTION TO IT.

THEY SAID, "WE DO NOT DIMINISH THE VALUE OF "MAUS" AS AN IMPACTFUL AND MEANINGFUL PIECE OF LITERATURE, NOR DO WE DISPUTE THE IMPORTANCE OF TEACHING OUR CHILDREN THE HISTORICAL AND MORAL LESSONS OF REALITIES OF THE HOLOCAUST. "

TO THE CONTRARY, WE HAVE ASKED OUR ADMINISTRATORS TO FIND OTHER WORKS TO ACCOMPLISH THE SAME EDUCATIONAL GOALS IN A MORE AGE-APPROPRIATE FASHION. "

TELL ME YOUR REACTION TO THAT .

>> I HAVE COME TO REALIZE THAT AGE-APPROPRIATE IS BROAD RANGE.

THEY WERE PROBABLY 40-YEAR-OLD PEOPLE ON THE SCHOOL BOARD AS WELL AS 14-YEAR-OLD STUDENTS IN THEIR CLASSES.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MIDDLE SCHOOL, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT SOME KIDS THAT CAN BARELY READ AND SOME THAT ARE TAKING ADVANCED PLACEMENT CLASSES AT THE UNIVERSITY FOR EDUCATION.

ANYTHING THAT HELPS THE EDUCATION HAPPEN IS IMPORTANT .

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR AN 8th GRADER TO BE TAUGHT A BOOK LIKE THIS?

>> BECAUSE IN ORDER TO BE A RESPONSIBLE HUMAN AND NOT BROUGHT UP WITH A LOT OF PROPAGANDA -- IT IS A MATTER OF BEING WELL-EDUCATED.

SOME PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO DO THAT ON THEIR OWN.

MANY PEOPLE NEED SCHOOLS TO DO IT.

I UNDERSTAND HOW MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE IT SHOULD BE A PRIMARILY RELIGIOUS EDUCATION.

I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT IS THE WAY TO GET TO THE ETHICAL FUTURE.

BUT AN ETHICAL FUTURE IS TO REDRESS THE WAYS WE CREATE A DIVIDED SET OF CLASSES IN AMERICA.

THE DIFFICULTY RIGHT NOW BEING A PERSON OF COLOR IN AMERICA, AND TO BE TOTALLY CLEAR, GETTING POLARIZED AROUND THAT ISSUE, IT IS IMPORTANT TO EMBRACE IT.

>> ONE OF THE SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS THIS WEEK SAID THAT PARENTS CAN READ "MAUS" AT HOME TO THEIR STUDENTS.

BUT WE DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT PART OF THE CURRICULA .

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU AND WHY WOULD THEY SAY THAT?

>> I THINK THEY WOULD SAY THAT BECAUSE IT IS PART OF LOCALIZING ALL POLITICS.

THE SCHOOL BOARDS ARE BETTER EQUIPPED THEN CONGRESS TO PASS LAWS ABOUT HOW CHILDREN MIGHT BE EDUCATED SO THEY ARE USEFUL AND GOOD CITIZENS OF THE COUNTRY.

BUT ALSO , IT IS A BIT DISINGENUOUS FOR THEM TO KEEP FOCUSING ON A FEW RATHER MILD BITS OF FOUL LANGUAGE .

AND SOMETHING I FOUND REALLY OFFENSIVE.

THEY KEEP NOT TALKING ABOUT THE REAL ISSUES WHICH IS THE HOLOCAUST.

WE DON'T MIND TEACHING THE HOLOCAUST BUT I FEEL LIKE THEY WANT A MORE KIND AND GENTLE HOLOCAUST TO PRESENT TO THEIR CHILDREN.

WHAT THEY ARE REALLY UPSET ABOUT IS ONE PANEL, WHAT THEY DESCRIBE AS A NUDE WOMAN AND THEY DESCRIBED AS SEXUAL, I FOUND THAT AS OFFENSIVE AS ANYTHING THEY FOUND IN "MAUS. "

WITH PART OF THE BOOK ABOUT MY MOTHER'S SUICIDE AND HOW I RESPONDED THE DAY I FIND OUT SHE KILLS HERSELF.

IT HAS HER NAKED AND OF BATHTUB FULL OF BLOOD .

IT IS JUST A PERSON IN A BATHTUB WITH BLOOD.

USUALLY IN A BATHTUB, BREASTS ARE VISIBLE.

I THINK THEY WERE ASKING ME TO PUT A BATHROBE ON MY MOM WHICH DOESN'T MAKE MUCH SENSE DESCRIBING THAT AS SEXUAL.

AND TO USE THE WOMAN AS NUDE AND NOT NAKED.

ALSO AN UNCONSCIOUS OR CONSCIOUS CHOICE OF HOW THEY PRESENT THIS.

IN ORDER TO DEFLECT FROM THE REAL ISSUES IN THE BOOK AND IN FACT, WHY "MAUS" IS SUCH A GOOD TEACHING TOOL EVEN THOUGH I CONFESS TO THAT I NEVER EXPECTED OR WANTED IT TO BE THIS YA NOVEL.

I HAVE DONE WELL ASSIMILATING MESSAGES TO CHILDREN I HAVE SPOKEN TO IN SCHOOLS, THE YOUNG PEOPLE.

I THINK THE VERY THINGS THEY ARE OBJECTING TO --ONE OF THEM ACTUALLY SAID, I LOVE THE HOLOCAUST .

SAYING , THE PART OF THE STORY MY FATHER IS TELLING IS PERFECT BUT WHY IS THERE ALL THIS OTHER STUFF THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE HOLOCAUST?

WHICH IS NOT TRUE.

IT IS THE WAY THE BOOK WAS COME FORWARD IN THE WAY IT WAS MEANT IS THROUGH MY EYES UNDERSTANDING AND LEARNING AND TEACHING MYSELF , HOW I EVER GOT TO THIS PLANET PICKED BOTH PARENTS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE DEAD IN AUSCHWITZ.

AS AN ADULT, I WENT BACK TO MY FATHER AND HE WAS WILLING TO TELL ME IN DETAIL.

WE FINALLY FOUND COMMON GROUND WHERE WE COULD TALK TO EACH OTHER WITHOUT YELLING AT EACH OTHER .

AND THE MEMORIES OF THE DEATH CAMPS.

>> TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK THE UNDERLYING FEAR WAS THAT IS CAUSING PEOPLE TO WANT TO REMOVE FROM THE CURRICULUM WILL BOOKS LIKE YOURS .

>> I THINK IT IS PART OF A GENERAL AND WIDESPREAD AUTHORITARIAN INFLUENCE.

WHEN I TRIED TO DECONSTRUCT WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE SCHOOL BOARD WHICH I'M SURE WOULD BE NO HAPPIER WITH ANY OF THE BOOKS OUT THERE ON GENDER ISSUES OR RACE ISSUES.

IT HAS TO DO WITH WHO IS IN CHARGE HERE.

THE PROBLEM IS THEY ARE NOT REALLY EQUIPPED TO GIVE CHILDREN A GOOD EDUCATION.

THE PARENTS THAT WENT TO SCHOOL IN THE COUNTY , THEY NEVER GOT A GOOD EDUCATION THAT WOULD ALLOW THEM TO DECONSTRUCT MY BOOK FOR EXAMPLE, WITH ANY INTELLIGENCE.

THEREFORE, EVEN THOUGH I DID NOT MAKE IT FOR CHILDREN, IF IT IS GOING TO BE IN SCHOOLS FOR KIDS THAT ARE 14, IT IS NOT A PROBLEM BUT IT IS BETTER TO BE DONE UNDER A CURRICULUM THAT IS GETTING SUPPORTING MATERIALS AND ACTUALLY HELPING ONE UNDERSTAND THE ISSUES MORE BROADLY.

IN FACT, THE PEOPLE, THE TEACHERS AT THE BOARD MEETING, WERE ADAMANT THAT THEY THOUGHT IT SHOULD BE TAUGHT IN THEIR CLASSES BECAUSE IT IS PART OF A CURRICULUM THAT CAN SHOW NEWS FOOTAGE AND OTHER FILMS AND OTHER BOOKS AND OTHER ARTICLES TO PUT INTO CONTEXT.

AND THE THIRD ITEM ON THE CURRICULUM, THE 4th QUARTER, IS ABOUT JAPANESE INTERNMENT CAMPS.

AND SO I THINK THEY ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK.

I FEEL SAD WHEN I LISTEN TO -- WHEN I READ THE MINUTES OF THE SCHOOL BOARD MEETING .

EVEN THEY WERE TRYING TO FIND WAYS TO GET PAST THE SCHOOL BOARD BY SAYING, WE TRIED TO WHITE OUT BAD WORDS LIKE DAMN, AND THE WORD WHEN I TALK ABOUT MY MOTHER AND MY ANGER FOR HER HAVING ABANDONED ME AND THEN HAVING FOUND OUT SHE HAD KILLED HERSELF.

THEY JUST LEFT THE B IN PLACE.

AS A MODEST PROPOSAL, IS IT RATHER THAN LEAVE THE B, THEY COULD PUT IN BAGEL OR SOMETHING BECAUSE IT BRINGS A MORE WHOLESOME PARTS OF JEWISH HERITAGE AND MAYBE LOOK UP SOME RECIPES.

IT IS ALL DEFLECTION WHICH IS THE CASE FOR ALL OF THESE BOOKS THAT HAVE BEEN BANNED UNDER THE COUNTRY .

>> LET ME TALK ABOUT SOMETHING YOU JUST SAID.

THE PARENTS ARE NOT REALLY WELL EDUCATED ENOUGH AND THEY DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT WOULD BE GOOD FOR THEIR CHILDREN.

ISN'T THAT A PROBLEM IF WE ARE NOT TRYING TO BALANCE THE FACT THAT PARENTS SHOULD HAVE SOME SAY AND THAT WOULD SEEM CONTEMPTUOUS , PARENTS THAT WANT TO SAY, I NEED SOME CONTROL OVER WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT TO MY KIDS ?

>> OBVIOUSLY, THAT IS A VERY AMERICAN ATTITUDE.

I BELIEVE THE WAY IT IS IN FRANCE, WHICH IS THE OTHER COUNTRY I'M EXPOSED TO BECAUSE OF MY WIFE AND FRIENDS FROM FRANCE, IS THAT PUBLIC EDUCATION IS ABOUT EDUCATING PEOPLE SO THEY CAN PARTICIPATE IN THEIR GREAT DEMOCRACY EXPERIMENTS.

THEREFORE, ONE HAS TO LEARN TO TRUST THE TEACHERS OR HIRE TEACHERS THAT ARE TRUSTWORTHY.

IT IS NOT ABOUT TRUSTING CHILDREN BUT MAKING SURE THEY ARE NOT EXPOSED TO ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF THE VERY NARROW FOCUS .

THIS INCLUDES PEOPLE WHO ARE TRIGGERED BY READING ABOUT THE SLAVE JIM IN "HUCKLEBERRY FINN" AND BEING EXPOSED TO A BAD WORD.

IT IS BETTER TALKING TO THE SCHOOL THAN COMING ACROSS THE WORD WHEN MARK TWAIN IS WRITING IT IN 1921 .

IT IS IN A CONTEXT IN WHICH JIM IS THE MOST HUMAN AND FULLY DEVELOPED CHARACTER IN SOME WAYS AND ALL OF HUCKLEBERRY FINN.

SO I'M JUST A FIRST AMENDMENT FUNDAMENTAL.

I BELIEVE IT IS BEST TAUGHT WITH MORE TALK.

ONE THAT EXPOSES CHILDREN TO THINGS.

THESE THINGS COULD BE TAUGHT AND SHOULD BE TAUGHT .

INCLUDING THE UGLIEST PARTS AS WELL AS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL.

THEY ARE TRYING TO WHITEWASH IT AND HIDE WHAT CHILDREN, AND ADULTS NEED TO BE EXPOSED TO IT.

IN "MAUS," YOU REFER TO THE JEWISH AS MICE AND THE NAZIS AS CATS AND OTHER GROUPS AS DIFFERENT ANIMALS.

IN SOME WAYS, THAT HELPS GIVEN EMOTIONAL JUST DISTANCE.

>> IT DOES BOTH.

IT GIVES ME ENOUGH DISTANCE TO MAKE THIS THING BY PUTTING THESE MASKS ON OTHER PEOPLE.

BUT IT IS MADE CLEAR THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THE STORY.

IT ALLOWS BOTH THE DISTANCE FOR ME TO ENTER INTO THE MATERIAL AND THE KIND OF INTIMACY.

THESE MICE ALL LOOK SORT OF A LAKE.

THEY ARE ALL TRIANGLES WITH TWO DOTS.

LITTLE LUMPS FOR EARS.

THAT MEANS IF YOU IDENTIFY WITH ME, YOU WILL BE , AS A CHARACTER IN THE BOOK, ALREADY TALKING TO HIS DAD.

AND YOU WILL BE IDENTIFYING WITH THE PEOPLE THAT LOOK ALMOST EXACTLY LIKE THEM.

SO TO MAKE SURE YOU ALL UNDERSTOOD WHO YOU ARE LOOKING AT.

I WAS TELLING THE STORY OF THE DESTINIES OF MANY OF THESE PEOPLE.

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO RESOLVE THE DILEMMA YOU BROUGHT UP A COUPLE OF MINUTES AGO.

THE ONE WHERE PARENTS HAVE THE RIGHT TO --THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO HAVE INPUT BUT I THINK PARENTS SHOULD HAVE AN ADVANCED TEACHING DEGREE BEFORE THEY TAKE THAT ULTIMATE AUTHORITY.

IS THE SAME STATE 35 MILES AWAY FROM THE SCHOOL BOARD TRYING TO KEEP EVOLUTION FROM BEING TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS.

THIS IS NOT A USEFUL EDUCATION IF THEY HAD SUCCEEDED IN TEACHING OR NOT TEACHING DARWIN IN SCHOOLS.

I DON'T THINK STOPPING ONE'S EDUCATION WITH THE NEW TESTAMENT IS ANY BETTER BETTER.

>> YOU SAID WE ARE LIVING IN REALLY PERILOUS TIMES.

BUT DO YOU THINK THAT PULLING A BOOK LIKE YOURS OUT OF A CURRICULA FOR EIGHTH GRADERS IS REALLY A STOP ON THE WAY TO A RULEBOOK BAN AND BOOK BURNING?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I DON'T KNOW TO WHAT DEGREE THE SCHOOL BOARD WAS WORKING IN COLLUSION WITH MOMS FOR LIBERTY BUT THAT IS A VERY OVERT PROGRAM.

VERY MALEVOLENT.

WILL FINANCE.

TO BOOKS OUT OF LIBRARIES AND SCHOOLS TO ONLY TEACH A VERY POSITIVE AND PATRIOTIC PICTURE OF AMERICA'S PAST THAT IS NOT USEFUL IN UNDERSTANDING AMERICA'S PRESENT.

IT IS AS PEERLESS AS YOU MIGHT THINK.

IT IS NOT JUST TAKING IT OUT OF THE CURRICULUM AND LEAVING THE KID TO FEND FOR THEMSELVES THAT THEY CAN FIND THE BOOK BUT IT IS ALSO ABOUT TRYING TO CONTROL EVERYTHING BEING READ INCLUDING IN LIBRARIES .

I THINK THERE IS A CASE WHERE I WAS READING THAT YOU GET A $10,000 A DAY FINE FOR A BANNED BOOK IN THAT AREA.

AND THAT IS COMING CLOSER TO THE GENUINE BOOK BANNING.

THE PROBLEM WITH BANNING BOOKS IS, I WAS RIGHT THAT THEY ARE NOT NAZIS.

THAT IS NOT WHAT IS HAPPENING.

BUT IT IS NOT EFFECTIVE.

YOU HAVE TO GO ON AND BURN THEM.

AFTER YOU BURN THE BOOKS, YOU HAVE TO BURN THE PEOPLE THAT WROTE THEM.

IT IS A TRAJECTORY.

I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT CERTAINLY.

>> WHOOPI GOLDBERG GOT SUSPENDED FOR TWO WEEKS FROM "THE VIEW" BECAUSE OF WHAT SHE SAID IN THE CONVERSATION ABOUT YOUR BOOK AND THE CONTROVERSY SURROUNDING THE PULLING OF YOUR BOOK FROM THE CURRICULUM.

LET ME READ YOU WHAT SHE SAID AND THE DISCUSSION AND GET YOUR REACTION TO IT.

SHE SAID, " SAID, "THE HOLOCAUST IS NOT ABOUT RACE.

IT IS ABOUT MAN'S INHUMANITY TO MAN. "

ONE OF THE OTHER COHOST SAID, "IT WAS DRIVEN BY WHITE SUPREMACY. "

AND WHOOPI GOLDBERG SAID, THESE ARE TWO WHITE GROUPS OF PEOPLE .

SHE APOLOGIZED BUT WAS STILL SUSPENDED .

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF THAT .

>> FAIR ENOUGH.

I THINK WHAT WAS SAID WAS SAID AND SOME KIND OF IGNORANCE OF A MASTER RACE EXTERMINATING AN INFERIOR RACE WAS THE RHETORIC OF GERMANY AT THE TIME.

SO WHETHER OR NOT THE JEWISH ARE WHITE, BLACK OR STRIPED BEING THE REAL ISSUE, IT IS ABOUT HUMANITY.

THE SAME WAY THE GENOCIDE OF INDIGENOUS AMERICANS WAS ALSO MEN'S CRUELTY TO MEN.

WITHIN THAT, RACE SEEMS TO BE AN IMPORTANT AND HIGHLY CHARGED TOPIC IN AMERICA.

I THINK SHE LEARNED HER LESSON BECAUSE OF THE CONVERSATION THAT ENSUED AS A RESULT OF WHAT SHE SAID WHICH IS BASICALLY A PROCESS OF EDUCATION AND IT IS WHAT HAPPENED TO HER.

I THINK SHE CAME OUT WITH A VERY SINCERE RESPONSE .

I DIDN'T GET IT.

I GET IT NOW.

IT SHOULDN'T BE FAIR FOR HER JOB.

THE PUNISHMENT IS UNNECESSARY.

WHAT HAPPENS INSTEAD WAS SIMPLY SOMEBODY JUST TALKING TO HER AND EXPLAINING WHAT THE REALITY OF THE HISTORY IS .

I THINK SHE WAS ABLE TO GET IT SO , CASE CLOSED.

LET'S MOVE ON.

AND LET'S MOVE ON WITH THE PROBLEMS OF KEEPING WHAT HAS TO BE REMEMBERED, REMEMBERED.

NOT JUST AUSCHWITZ BUT THE ENTIRE HISTORY .

>> WHAT ROLE CAN "MAUS" PLAY IN FIGHTING ANTI-SEMITISM ?

AND FOR THAT MATTER, FIGHTING RACISM RACISM?

>> IT GIVES ONE A MODEL OF WHAT HAPPENED IN A WAY THAT CLEARLY, FROM MY EXPERIENCE, IS UNDERSTANDABLE.

KIDS YOUNGER THAN 14 ADULTS.

I KNOW A COPY WAS GIVEN BY MY FRIEND JR, THE PHOTOGRAPHER , TO A NEO-NAZI WHO IS IN A PRISON IN CALIFORNIA AND I GOT A FAN LETTER FROM HIM AFTERWARDS THAT HELPED HIM OPEN HIS EYES ABOUT WHAT HAPPEN.

AND WANTED TO GET A NAZI TATTOO OFF HIS BODY.

IT IS ACROSS-THE-BOARD THAT IT IS USEFUL I DON'T THINK NEO- NAZIS ARE OUT TO GET JEWISH.

I THINK THERE IS THE GREAT FEAR THAT AMERICANS WARRANT COME OFF THE MAYFLOWER, MIGHT NOT BE ALLOWED TO VOTE OR THINGS LIKE THAT.

THE NEO-NAZIS ARE AT LEAST AS UNHAPPY WITH BLACK CITIZENS AS THEY ARE WITH JEWISH.

IT IS ALL ONE PILE TO MAKE ONESELF FEEL STRONGER AND BETTER.

I THINK IT PLAYS INTO BEING USEFUL BY BEING CATS AND MICE WITH NAZIS AND JEWISH.

BECAUSE CATS AND MICE BECOME THAT SELF-DESTRUCTING METAPHOR.

IT IS ABOUT ALL RACES .

IF YOU FIND THEM ON YOUR SCHOOL BOARD OR MESSING WITH YOUR LIBRARIES, THEY NEED TO BE RESISTANT BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE THE POSSIBLE CONSEQUENCES.

>> ART SPEIGELMAN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU.

>> ART SPEIGELMAN'S WORDS ARE EXTREMELY PERTINENT TODAY.

THIS IS THE 80TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE CONCENTRATION CAMP IN GERMANY.

ART AND LITERATURE PLAYED A CRUCIAL ROLL IN TELLING SURVIVOR STORIES AND TEACHING US IMPORTANT LESSONS FROM HISTORY.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER ON PBS.

ORG AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR & COMPANY ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.