- [Announcer] A production of South Carolina ETV.

(bright upbeat music) (bright upbeat music continues) (bright upbeat music continues) (bright upbeat music continues) (bright upbeat music continues) - Hello from Clemson, I'm Patti Just.

Our guest on this program is Betsy Byars, who's a writer of books for young people.

Six of her novels have been dramatized and presented on national television, and her books have been translated into nine languages.

Five of her novels have been named notable books by the American Library Association.

And, in 1971, "The Summer of the Swans" won the Newbery Award as the most distinguished contribution to literature for children in the year of its publication.

Some of her other book titles are "Cracker Jackson," "Bingo Brown's Guide to Romance," and her newest, "McMummy."

Ms.

Byars was born in Charlotte, North Carolina and attended Furman University and then Queens College in Charlotte, where she received her Bachelor of Arts.

She now makes her home in Clemson, and we're very pleased to be able to visit with you, Ms.

Byars.

- Oh, thank you, it's good to have you.

- As a young person, it would've been hard for you to imagine yourself as a writer today.

- Oh, yes.

When I was growing up, I loved math and I loved those problems, if a farmer can plow 10 fields in two days, so and so.

But then I got to calculus and sines and cosines, and I couldn't do it anymore, so I became an English major.

- But you thought at one time that writing would just be very boring?

- Oh, yes.

I thought a writer sat all by themselves in a room and typed and never got to meet people, never got to do anything.

And that is what we do.

We do sit and type all day.

But writing has been a wonderful asset.

I've met so many people, I've been so many places, that it's been nothing like I imagined.

- Can you trace your steps for us a little bit?

I know that you seriously started writing in Illinois.

- My husband was a graduate student.

And we lived in a barracks apartment, and there was an ax on the wall that said: "In case of fire, chop hole in wall and exit."

And I wouldn't wanna wait for the fire.

I wanted to go ahead and chop the hole and go.

So I started writing to have something to do and to make some money, and that was really my goal.

I didn't wanna just write to please myself.

I wanted to sell what I was writing.

- And the very first novel that you turned out wasn't a very big success for you?

- No, that's an understatement.

(Betsy laughs) - What was it?

I know it was called "Clementine."

- It was called "Clementine."

And it was a story, it was seven short stories.

I couldn't handle a plot back then, a full plot.

So it was seven short stories about three characters, and it really was not successful.

- And then prior to that, I guess, you started working for magazines and newspapers.

- I wrote for the grocery store magazines, and I wrote short... The Saturday Evening Post had something called the Postscripts Page, and I wrote for that.

And Look had a Look on the Light Side page.

And I wrote for both of those.

- Were they always aimed at young people?

- No, those were adult.

I was writing for adults when I wrote those things.

- Well, then what happened then, the transition to writing for young people?

- Well, anytime I would see something that I felt was within my grasp, I would try it.

And my children were bringing books home and reading them, and I was reading to them.

And I thought, "I think I could write one of these."

You know, I thought, "This is not that hard."

Actually, it turned out to be a lot harder than I expected it to be.

- I know that you have said that writers have to go through sort of an apprenticeship.

- Yes.

It's like anything, it's like baseball or piano playing, there's a lot of practice involved.

And many people think: "Well, I can just sit down and write something."

But there is a period of learning what you can do and how you can do it best.

- Well, how many books between "Clementine" and then the Newbery did you have to go through?

- Oh, I wrote a lot of books that were not accepted.

And I look at them now, I can see why they weren't accepted, but at the time it was a terrible mystery to me.

I thought they were just terrific.

- I know that you put a lot of yourself into your work.

- That was one of the hardest things.

Everyone had always said, "Write about what you know, "you know, put yourself in your writing."

But that was very hard for me.

And it wasn't until I got to the point where I could do that that I started having some success.

- [Patti] And what prompted "The Summer of the Swans," your biggest achievement, I guess, in your career?

- I was living in West Virginia at the time, and they had a program where just ordinary people, truck drivers or coal miners or mothers, would go into the schools and work with kids that had learning disabilities.

And I worked with a first-grade boy and a third-grade girl.

And even though the kids I worked with were not Charlie in "The Summer of the Swans," if I hadn't had that experience in seeing what the difficulties they had were, not only with learning but with how the kids treated them, then I don't think I would ever have written the book.

- Can you tell us a little of the story and perhaps read something?

- The story is that Sara Godfrey has a younger brother who has a mental handicap, and she is going through a summer where she is very distraught and unsure of herself, and he seems like a burden to her.

- Do you have something you could read?

- Yes.

Charlie is the name of the brother.

"In his room, Charlie lay in bed, still kicking his foot against the wall.

He was not asleep but was staring up at the ceiling where the shadows were moving.

He never went to sleep easily, but tonight he had been concerned because a button was missing from his pajamas, and sleep was impossible.

He had shown the place where the button was to Aunt Willie when he was ready for bed, but she had patted his shoulder and said, 'I'll fix it tomorrow,' and gone back to watching a game show on television.

'Look at that,' Aunt Willie was saying, 'they're never gonna guess the name.

'How can famous celebrities be so stupid?'

She had leaned forward and shouted at the panelists: 'It's Clark Gable!'

Then, 'Have they never heard of a person 'who works in a store?'

A person who works in a store is a clerk, Clerk Gable.

Charlie had touched her on the shoulder and tried to show her again the pajamas.

'I'll fix it tomorrow, Charlie,' she had waved him away.

He had gone back into the kitchen where Sara was dying her tennis shoes in the sink.

'Don't show it to me,' she said, 'I can't look at anything right now.

'And, Mary, quit laughing at my tennis shoes.'

'I can't help it, they're so gross.'

Sara lifted them out of the sink with two spoons.

'I know they're gross, 'only you should have told me 'that orange tennis shoes could not be dyed baby blue.'

'Look at that.

'That is the worst color 'you have ever seen in your life, admit it.'

'I admit it.'

'Well, you don't have to admit it so quickly.

'They ought to put on the dye wrap 'that the orange cannot be dyed baby blue, a warning.

'They do.'

'Well, they ought to put it in big letters.

'Look at those shoes.

'There must be a terrible name for that color.

'There is,' Mary said, 'puce.'

'What?'

'Puce.'

'Mary Weicek, you made that up.'

'I did not, it really is a color.

'I have never heard a word 'that describes anything better, puce.

'These just look like puce shoes, don't they?'

She set them on newspapers.

'Charlie, get out of the way please 'or I'm gonna get dye all over you.'

He stepped back, still holding his pajama jacket out in front of him.

There were times when he could not get anyone's attention no matter what he did."

- Now, why do you think that book was so successful?

- I think it was the first time that this had been dealt with in a serious way.

And I think also girls can identify with Sara because they go through that period when they think their feet are too big and they're too tall and they're too gawky and everything's wrong with them.

- Talking about writing about what you know, again, this comes from your experience and from your daughter's experience.

- From both.

I have three daughters, and when they were growing up, they were very sensitive.

You know, they were always saying, "Don't write about me.

"What are you writing?

Don't put anything about me."

But over the course of the years, I've used a lot of things that they said and did.

- [Patti] Well, how did you feel at that time when you won that most prestigious award?

- Oh, it was absolutely stunning.

The book had not been enormously successful.

I think it had probably sold 5,000 copies in the first year.

And that's not good.

And so if anything, I was thinking, you know, I must sharpen up, you know?

So it was really a wonderful, wonderful surprise.

And when I went out to Los Angeles for the initial reception, someone said to me: "It's so refreshing to have someone win "that nobody ever heard of."

(Betsy laughs) So that was what it was.

I was someone that no one had ever heard of, and I won.

- Did that put any pressure on you as a writer to continue on?

- No, it didn't put pressure on it, but it absolutely changed my life.

You know, we had to get a bigger mailbox, and kids would send me tapes of what they thought of the book and asking me to send tapes back.

I got questionnaires, all sorts of things.

- What kinds of questions do kids have for you?

Are they surprising sometimes?

- Oh, sometimes they are surprising.

Sometimes they just wanna know where you got a certain idea, that maybe they did something like it, and they just wanna know, you know, if the same thing happened to you.

And they always ask me that: "Did you, you know, ever do this?

Did you do that?"

- The bulk of your writing was done in West Virginia?

- Yes, it was.

- Now, you moved there with another job with your husband.

- Yes, we moved there in 1960.

And almost all of my books had West Virginia settings.

Wherever I am, I sort of use the setting.

And West Virginia and Ohio and that area was sort of the setting that I used in so many of my books.

- Well, many writers won't admit to having a favorite book, but you do.

You have one called "The Midnight Fox," which is your favorite.

- I think it was my favorite because it was the first book I wrote that came out the way I had envisioned.

You know, there's a great gap between what you think you're writing or what you hope you're writing and what you're actually writing.

And maybe you think it's gonna be very exciting, and you read it and it's just absolutely flat.

But this was the first time the book came out the way I had envisioned, and it sort of let me know that I was going to be able to do some of the things that I wanted to do.

- Is this the one that you wrote the ending first?

- I wrote the first few paragraphs, and then I wrote the last few paragraphs, and then I did the middle.

- Tell us that story a little bit.

- It's a very usual story.

It's been used over and over again.

And that's true of a lot of books.

And you just have to give it your own special twist.

Tom's parents are going to Europe for a vacation, and he is going to have to go to the farm and spend the summer with his aunt and uncle.

And he's a boy who does not like the outdoors.

He likes to make models and indoor things.

And, well, while he's at the farm, he sees this black fox, and he becomes very interested in it.

He never makes friends with it, I wouldn't say, but he sees it often, and he comes to care about it a great deal.

- Do you have something you could read?

- I'll read the end.

This is after Tom has gone back home.

And he can't remember the farm very well, and it's as if it had happened to another boy, he says.

"But then sometimes at night, when the rain is beating against the windows of my room, I think about that summer and everything is crystal clear.

I am once again beside the creek.

The air is green and the grass is deep and very green.

And I look up and see the black fox leaping over the crest of the hill, and she is exactly as she was the first time I saw her.

Or I am beneath that tree again.

The cold rain is beating down upon me, and my heart is in my throat.

And I hear, just as plainly as I heard it that August night, above the rain, beyond the years, the high, clear bark of the midnight fox."

That's what I wrote first.

- That's a great story.

His story comparing the city life and the country life, is that parallel somewhat some of your early childhood?

- Well, no, because I loved the outdoors, and I loved animals.

I was the opposite of Tom in every way.

But I think at the time I wrote that, they wanted books in which girls were very strong.

And so you didn't want to ever write a book about a girl who had weak feelings, you know?

But it was perfectly all right to write about a boy who was sensitive, and that was very popular.

So that's probably why I did it.

- But as a girl, you had an opportunity, you lived in the city some, and you also had some farm life experience.

- And my father worked for a cotton mill, and sometimes we lived out by the mill, which was rural life.

And we had goats and dogs and chickens and all kind of things.

And then, the other part of the time, I lived in the city.

So I really had the best of both worlds.

- Where's the inspiration for your stories come from?

I know you write about computers and a variety of other topics.

- Sometimes it's just someone will say one sentence, and I know that's the book.

We were visiting a friend once, and we were getting ready to go out, she had a small swimming pool, and she said, "Every time we go out, "kids come over and swim, "and I'm terrified someone's gonna be hurt."

And as soon as she said that, I thought "The Night Swimmers," you know?

And so sometimes it comes like that.

And, sometimes, "The Summer of the Swans," I heard on the radio, driving home from town, a report of an old man who was lost in the woods.

And then I started thinking: "Well, I wouldn't want it to be an old man.

"I want it to be a kid."

- So what do you do, jot it down very quickly and stick it in your pocket?

- Usually I do, because, you know, these things come and go.

(Betsy laughs) - Gotta grab that inspiration when it comes.

What about the Bingo Brown series?

You have, I don't know how many, how many are in that, seven or eight books?

- It may seem like that, but I think it's only four.

(Betsy laughs) It was just gonna be one, and then I enjoyed writing those books so much.

I was starting to write, I was on one of the Bingo Brown books, and I was trying to think of a name for a minor character.

And the name Bingo popped into my mind, and I thought, "Well, I don't wanna waste that."

And then I kept typing, and then I realized how he got his name, that when he was born, when he popped into the world, the doctor said, "Bingo."

And that later, he would say to his mom: "He wasn't naming me.

"He said that every time a baby was born," you know?

And I kept typing, and then I realized later he would write in his diary: "Who knows what kind of person I would've become "if the doctor had said Richard?"

(Betsy laughs) And so by that time, his personality was formed, and so I just quit what I was doing and started Bingo Brown.

- [Patti] And his latest adventure is his guide to romance.

- Yes.

I get a lot of letters from boys, and most of the letters say: "I am exactly like Bingo Brown, "except I'm not afraid to hold a girl's hand."

(Betsy laughs) - When you write, I know that you have said that you write up to your readers, not down to them.

- Oh yes, yes.

Kids are very sharp.

I think this generation of kids is the sharpest generation we've ever had.

And, you know, I really feel privileged to be writing for them.

My procedure of writing is exactly the same, although I'll use the word processor.

I used to write on a manual typewriter, and then I would take it somewhere else, and I would edit it and go through it and go back to the typewriter and retype it.

And that's exactly what I do now, except I use the word processor.

- So how many rewrites do you do now?

- I couldn't even begin to tell you.

Because I do each page at least probably a dozen times, you know?

Then I send it in, and always my editors want changes made and want me to do it over again.

My editors, what my editors are always looking for, they're looking at it from the reader's point of view.

Maybe I have skipped ahead.

They say, you know, "There was a whole day in here.

"What happened to them that day?"

The reader needs to know what is going on.

So, I mean, they never go through and say, "You shouldn't say that or don't do this."

- In your career, you've had, what, 17 editors?

- I have had 17 editors.

I think people are lucky who work with just one editor because they get to know what you're capable of and so forth.

But it also has been good, in a way, to have a variety of editors and a variety of input.

- How does that impact you, having to come to terms with 17 different personalities?

- Well, I did one book called "Coast to Coast," and it took me so long, it just took me so long to get it right, that the editor just came and went, you know?

So I had, I think, three different editors on that book.

- [Patti] Now, your newest book is called "McMummy," which is a little bit different for you.

- It was different, in that anytime you do something different, I think it's more fun for you.

And it's a little bit... All my other books are so realistic, and this is a little non-realistic.

And so it was fun to do.

- Do you remember when that idea came to you?

- I had it for a long time, but I didn't think I was gonna be able to handle it, and so I kept putting it off.

- What's the story?

- The story is that Mozie, a young boy, is plantsitting for a Professor Orloff, who is trying to cure the problem of world hunger by growing these enormous vegetables.

And he is to go into the greenhouse and water the plants and nourish them.

And he notices that there's a huge pod shaped like a mummy in the back of the greenhouse.

And he's very much afraid of it and thinks there's something in it that might come out.

- Can you read something for us?

- Yes.

In this section, he has gone to the greenhouse, and he's afraid.

And Mozie's mother makes dresses for pageant contests, beauty contests.

And Valvoline, who's the one his mother's making a dress for, has agreed to go to the greenhouse with him.

"'The sprinkler system is right here.

'It won't take but a minute.'

Valvoline was beside him.

She was even better than Batty at security because she gave off a sort of perfumed warmth, while Batty's warmth gave off the scent of wet sneakers.

'Wait, don't turn it on yet,' Mozie froze with his hand halfway to the valve.

'I wanna see it.'

'The pod?'

'Yes,' she shuddered and grinned.

'I love stuff like that.

'I guess it's being in the greenhouse 'where I used to come and do crazy stuff in junior high.

'But I wanna see this pod.

'If you're sure.'

'Where is it?'

'Back there?'

'Hold on to me,' Valvoline urged.

Mozie took her arm as they started down the aisle, walking slowly toward the plant.

Mozie knew how it would feel to be walking down the aisle of a church one day, fearful of and yet hopeful for the future.

He hoped the bride at his side smelled like Valvoline.

'This is it?'

'Yes, but I don't see any pod.'

'Back there.'

Mozie pulled aside the leaves and Valvoline peered in.

'Well, I'll be,' she said.

'You know what that reminds me of?

A mummy.'

'How'd you know I was gonna say that?'

She turned to grin over her shoulder at Mozie.

'Is there anything inside?'

'I'm pretty sure there is.'

Valvoline pulled aside some lower leaves and searched the ground.

'I was hoping we'd find one lying on the ground, 'you know, a little one, we could cut it open.'

'I think there's just the one.'

Valvoline's eyes shone as she spun around.

Her hair flew out, brushing Mozie's face.

'I wanna listen to it.'

'What?'

'I wanna get in and listen, see if I hear anything.'

'I don't think you should.

'We're not even supposed to be back here, Valvoline.

'If Professor Orloff should come walking in, 'and he's overdue now...' 'Oh, that old man.

'I saw him on the noon news one time 'talking about his wegetables.

'He can't even pronounce a V.

'He'd probably say my name was Walwoline.'

She turned to the plant and wiggled her shoulders purposefully.

'I'm going in, hold on to me,' she told Mozie, 'and don't let go no matter what.'"

- Has your sense of humor been with you from the very beginning?

- Yes, in fact, that's what why I started.

I would read these things, sort of funny things in the Saturday Evening Posts, and I would think, "I think I can do that."

And I think that's why.

That is the reason that more people start writing than anything else.

They look at something, and they realize, "I could do that.

"Maybe I couldn't write 'Moby Dick,' but I could do that."

- Then the idea for "McMummy," did you pitch that to the editor first or did you... - No, I wouldn't dare.

(Betsy laughs) If you're writing a book about a vegetable mummy, you don't want anybody to know.

And the first title was "The Green Mummy."

And then, halfway through, I thought of "McMummy."

And so when I sent it in, I blew up the word, so it was just "McMummy" great big on the front page.

And I think her letter said to me: "We never know what you're going to come up with."

Which I'm sure was true even to me.

- How many books do you think there are in Betsy Byars?

- Oh, I don't know, every time I finish one, I think that's probably it.

And then something else comes to me.

- So there's no telling.

- No telling.

- And what about your experience with the afterschool specials and also the Saturday specials that you've had your books dramatized on television.

How'd that come about?

And were you pleased?

- Some of the experiences were pleasant.

They did "The Pinballs" with Kristy McNichols, and that was quite good.

But some of them were absolutely awful.

And when you sign over the rights to the book, they can do anything they want.

They can change the title, they can change the characters.

And so the last one I did was "The Night Swimmers," and they changed the title of that to "Daddy, I'm Their Mama Now."

And I thought, "This is it, I don't wanna do this anymore."

So that was my last one.

- What's a little of your life now?

I know that you're very interested in flying, and you're retired and living here in Clemson.

- Writing is probably a much smaller part of my life now, but, when I first started, I kept school hours.

When my kids went to school, I went to the typewriter, and I typed till three o'clock, and then I got up.

And now days and weeks go by, and I don't write, and then I'll write very concentratedly for a day and a half.

So it's a completely different schedule now.

- What about how long it takes you for a book like "McMummy?"

Would that take you a year to do?

- The first draft probably takes me six months, and then I keep working on it, you know?

And I get all kinds of things.

I'll read the Greenville News or something, and I'll get something out of that and I'll put it in.

So you're always looking for things to enrich your book, and that doesn't come quickly.

- Do you have editorial help from your family?

- No, I used to let my kids read my books, and I would say to them, "Just read it, "and turn it over when you lose interest."

And they would read one page and turn it over.

Kids aren't real thrilled with their parents or writers about reading what the parents have written.

- I know you have something called your failure drawer.

Do you still have that where you put things that don't quite work away?

- No, I think when I moved, I got rid of my failure drawer.

But one thing about those failures is sometimes there's one little thing in it that you can use.

So you recycle.

I have recycled some failures.

- Has it been beneficial to your career having those books chosen by the American Library Association?

- Oh, yes.

Anything that picks your book.

There are like 3 or 4,000 children's books published a year, and anything that pulls you out of the pack is very beneficial.

And the American Library Association, their word, you know, holds a lot of weight with libraries.

- What are some of the elements that you think make your books work so well?

- I think it's a combination of realism.

I think kids like to see their own world reflected in their books: what kind of shoes they're wearing and what they're doing, what movies, what shows they're watching.

And I think the humor.

And I think also they like to feel, they like emotional books.

They like to feel for their characters.

- [Patti] Your book, "Cracker Jackson" is an example of how you took an issue of the modern-day world, spousal abuse, and turned it into a story.

- Yes.

And I remember I was sitting on an airplane with a man one day, and he asked me what I did, and I said, "I wrote children's books."

And he said, "What's the name of one?"

I said, "Cracker Jackson."

He said, "What's it about?"

I said, "Wife abuse."

He said, "No, I'm serious, what is it really about?"

You know, because he grew up in the age when children's books just had to be nice.

That was the number one requirement.

And now anything is possible.

I feel so lucky that I've had a career that spans, you know, that started out really when books had to be nice and now you can do whatever you want.

- What about some of your other favorites?

Are there any others you'd like to point to?

Like "The Computer Nut" I was wondering about.

- Oh, I enjoyed "The Computer Nut."

I had just gotten my computer, and was thinking, "What if, you know, "someone contacted me on it?"

And my son is a computer expert, and I was talking to him about it, and I said, "If I did this book, "I would need some illustrations."

I said, "Would you do some illustrations?

"I would need an alien and a robot," named him what I'd need.

And he said, "Oh, I don't know, I'll think about it."

And then he went back, and about a month later I got an envelope in the mail, and he had done the illustrations.

And so I thought: "Well, I'd better get to work on this book now."

So that's one of my favorites because he did do the illustrations, and they kind of sparked it along.

- Are there illustrations in all of your books?

- No, they aren't.

That is the editor's choice.

Sometimes they decide yes and sometimes they decide no.

And sometimes I'm very pleased with the illustrations, and sometimes they're a disappointment.

- And what about to the future?

What's the next project you're gonna be working on?

- What I'm working on now is I'm hoping to do a series of books about Herculeah Jones, who's a very strong girl, and it's sort of a mystery detective series in which she will best the world.

(Betsy laughs) - Sounds great.

Is this a great place to work?

- Yes, it is.

- Very good.

Well, thank you so much for sharing your work with us on this program.

- Oh, thank you.

It's been nice meeting with you.

- From Clemson, I'm Patti Just.

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