[mellow R&B music] - Welcome to Fatherhood, where we uplift voices and redefine legacy by highlighting the strength, sacrifice, and stories of black fathers shaping our community every day.

Today, we're sitting down with fathers who not only lead their families, but also lead their congregations.

As pastors, these men are often seen as spiritual guides and community leaders.

But beyond the sermons and the Sunday services, they also carry the responsibility of being present and intentional fathers at home.

Scripture reminds us in Proverbs chapter 22 verse 6, "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

Joining us today are three respected leaders here in Memphis.

Pastor Devin Westbrook of Redemption Church, Pastor Timothy Hayes, Sr.

of Mt.

Zion Missionary Baptist Church, and Pastor Andrew Charles Singleton of Soul Winners Church.

Thank you all for joining us, pastors.

I feel blessed to be here on the same couch, in the same space as you all.

I really want to get into the conversation and let's start about how you even got into your ministry.

Start with Pastor Westbrook here.

- How did we get into our ministry?

- Yeah.

How did you even, what inclined you?

What motivated you?

What moved you to get into your ministry in church?

- Well that was, I always had an inclination or a love for Dr.

King.

I'm third of four children, and my mother would always bring me home books on civil rights.

She knew I had this affinity for Dr.

King.

So since I was a kid, I always felt this kind of a attachment to servant, servanthood.

Of course, I couldn't define it at that point, but she fed it to some degree, but it wasn't until 30 that I began to kind of walking into that space.

I remember it was Pastor Gina Stewart.

She was giving a revival at my home church.

And it was through that sermon that I really felt God said, "Okay, now it's time."

- Okay.

- So it really wasn't a desire to get into it.

[group laughing] It was more so an obedience to it.

At that point in my life, I'm 30 and I felt like, okay there's this thing I've been wrestling with since I was a kid.

And He's given me this amount of years to kind of do me to some degree.

And I was telling them in the back, I always felt like I was kind of on borrowed time anyway.

- Okay.

- So it was more relenting to that space.

Relenting to that call.

- Okay.

Pastor Hayes, talk about, were you inspired with, this is a show about fatherhood.

Was there a mentor or was there a father in your life that inspired you to get into ministry, or what was your journey like?

- Well, actually my father was a pastor - Okay.

- In the city of Memphis.

He's resting with the Lord now.

Reverend Lay Van Savage was the pastor of the True Worship Baptist Church in south Memphis.

He pastored over 40 years and I would quite often see him.

And then also my former pastor who's resting with the Lord as well, Pastor Fred Brown from the Second Baptist Church.

I was a choir member, usher, junior deacon, all through the channels of ministry.

- Okay.

- And one day I was sitting in the choir stand.

I was a young tenor in the choir stand.

And on a Sunday, I just heard a specific voice speak to me in the choir stand.

I did not allow the benediction to take place without coming forth.

And I kind of disrupted service because I touched the pastor on his shoulder, and told him something is going on.

And we actually held service up and he took me to the back and I told him what was going on.

And he came back out and introduced me, allowed me to introduce my calling on that day.

- Wow.

Wow.

- Yeah.

- How old were you at this point?

- I'm 51 now.

I was... twenty-four.

- Wow.

So you can say that the spirit moved you and then you went straight to the pastor.

- I ran a long time.

I was called in high school.

- Okay.

- And I just ran a marathon from the calling.

[group laughing] - Okay.

No, thank you for being transparent and honest about that.

Pastor Singleton.

- Yes sir.

- What did your journey look like?

- So I was, it's going to sound real bad.

- No, this is the moment.

This is truth honest.

- My village told me what I was going to be.

- How old?

- I was about six when I preached my first message.

- Wow.

- And from that point on, I just kept hearing everybody say, "This is what you're going to do.

"This what you're called to do."

I never really had a chance or I didn't have a chance to choose.

It was kind of like that way was already mapped out for me.

Now I did, what's funny is we all have that, that same story.

We are all runners.

We're all track stars.

- That's it.

- All of us.

Like, not literally, but... - Oh yeah, yeah.

- The song, "She's a runner.

She's a track star."

- Okay.

Yeah.

- Yeah.

We were all runners.

- That's what we, okay.

[laughing] - Yeah, yeah.

And so when I got, my father passed when I was 16.

He was a pastor.

And at that point I started running from it and God's got a way of bringing you back.

And so I came back into the Lord in '21.

I started pastoring Bishop G.E.

Patterson's church in Arkansas.

And so, yeah, that's been my whole life.

Yeah.

- Wow.

So, I mean, I think that's, I think that's important that you talk about you were almost like, at six years old, you were, what word did you use?

I don't want to misspoke.

Forced?

- I was steered.

- Strongly led.

- Strongly led.

- I was strong armed.

- Strongly led.

[Andrew laughing] - So let's talk about even in this segment today it's called fatherhood and legacies and different things like that.

How does that, now that you, that was your, I guess, experience as a child.

When you talk about being a father, do you do something different?

Is it the same as a father now, as someone that's leading the head of the church and the head of the congregation?

What do you do differently?

Or if you do anything differently when it comes to your kids?

- I tried to do it differently, but I ended up keeping the same pattern, just not as aggressive.

- Okay.

- I think when you end up doing like we've done, you keep your children in ministry with you at that small age.

It's almost like you're inadvertently steering them like that because you keep them close to that with you.

But I still wanted to make sure that their relationship with the Lord was an authentic one.

So I kept talking to them about choice, but I employed their ability to choose at the right age.

Especially if the scripture says train up a child and the ways you go.

From birth to about 12, it was, no, you going to church.

And then at 13, I started explaining to them, it's not just church.

- Right.

- It's relationship.

- More than church.

Yeah.

- And now you're coming to the age where you got to know the Lord for yourself.

And so I gave them the freedom to choose at the right age, but at the age where they couldn't, I had to make the choice for them.

- Okay.

- If that makes sense.

- Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Pastor Westbrook, can you even add more to that where, what is the challenge like of leading your congregation, being the strong leader in our community, but then also trying to be a present father?

What does that look like in your experience as a father and even as a head of your church?

- I think the experience, I think to some degree God has been Mr.

Miyagi-ing us for years.

- Always.

- We tend to think that we're not prepared for whatever season we're going in.

But what we didn't know is we've been doing wax on and wax off for a really long time.

And so when you talk about pastoring or even being influenced, how that influences fatherhood and fatherhood and pastoring.

Well, I was a father first.

And so I think getting the opportunity to navigate that space with my children, there's not a lot of difference between pastoring and parenting.

- No.

- It's not a lot of difference.

You deal with the, of course, you know, multi generational people with different personalities.

And you can have, I have five children.

- They all different.

- Right.

- So is a congregation.

So kind of get, navigating that space as a father helps you in a space as a pastor.

And navigating the balance is, I think I've, because I was a father first, that home piece, growing up without a father, that's a different priority.

So that home piece for me, although I love to pastor and I love the people that God trusts us with.

But this is my children.

And I never want to put them in a space where they feel like they got to choose.

- Absolutely.

- Right?

I never want to put them in a space where they feel like, well, you know, he loves that more than he loves us or he gives that more time than he gives us.

I'm going to give them everything I got.

But then there's some things, I compartmentalize it.

It gets, it does not get to have all access to me.

- Right.

- Yeah.

- There are some things I have to hold from my wife and my children.

And so that creates that balance for me.

- Wow.

This is really.

I love this conversation because this, you know, I'm not a pastor at all.

I definitely go to a church, attend church.

But hearing this from you all, being open and transparent about this, I think it's important for everybody that's watching today.

Pastor Hayes, talk more about, you know, the challenges of your experience of being a father, being present, being in your congregation, being a leader, you know, trying to do everything, I guess, "the right way".

Y'all know how that is as a pastor.

Talk about the challenges and the balance that you have to face in both aspects.

- Well, as Pastor Westbrook has stated and Dr.

Singleton, it's no guidelines other than seeking God.

Prioritizing.

There's one key word that has helped me in ministry and that's freedom.

- Okay.

- I have a young son that's preaching.

I have an older son that's a musician.

Both of them are musicians.

But I never told them, "You gonna be a pastor like me."

- Wow.

- Okay.

- I would never put that jacket on them if they have not received the anointing or calling from God.

I had to learn over time in ministry what to separate and how to separate it.

Used to be a time in my younger days of pastor, I used to bring ministry home with me.

And they was my punching bag.

- Yeah.

Wow.

- Until I got old enough to understand this is God's business.

And as Pastor Westbrook just stated, they both go hand in hand because we actually parent the church.

- Right.

- So parenting children and the church goes hand in hand.

The only difference is church don't live with us.

- That's right.

That's right.

That's right.

- And so that would be an outlook.

- So again, like I said, you know, by trade I'm a therapist.

When you use the words or when you say, you know, "I used to take church home with me" and then, you know, "My family would be my punching bag."

One, when did you realize that?

What kind of awareness did, did somebody give you that awareness?

Did you kind of, did God give you that awareness?

And then two, what helped you cope or what helped you manage both the church and family?

- Guilt.

Guilt because they're innocent.

They was not a part of anything I was bringing home.

They just happened to be in the area of the artillery to release, for me to release.

And truth be told, if I can hit rewind, I would do it over again.

And it's a growing experience.

Wisdom is not of age and birthdays.

Wisdom comes with time with God.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- And so I'm just at an age now to where I see it differently now.

- Yeah, that's amazing.

That was powerful to hear.

I mean, just being open about how separating the, you know, being the leader of your church and then coming home and trying to separate.

I'm Pastor Hayes, but at the same time, I'm daddy.

- Exactly.

- I'm a husband and different things like that and not letting them be your punching bag.

- Exactly.

- I appreciate you for saying that.

Pastor Singleton, talk more about, you know, when it comes to being this ideal person in the community, and then just being a model of, you know, what you want your congregation to be.

How has it influenced you in terms of the fatherhood aspect in terms of what you want your children to see?

Because I'm just going to be personal with my experience.

Most times when we think about the pastors, like that's not necessarily who we idolize, but that's a representation of what we're trying to be.

That's what we're trying to follow.

But at home, is there something different?

Like you say, yes, I'm Pastor Singleton, but I'm still dad and I do make mistakes.

I can show you that some of the challenges that I have faced.

So talk more about that.

- I grew up with men that were one way always.

And because that was instilled in me to be one way always, I try to make sure that who I go home as is who I get up in the pulpit as.

- Wow.

- And so the two personalities can't be different.

Because then you have bipolarism and schizophrenia operating.

- Coming into my lane.

- Yeah.

- And the danger in that is you got to try to remember who you are - That's right.

- In each space.

- That's right.

- I've never been the person to want to juggle personalities.

So I've always said, I try to live my life one way always.

And if I'm living the right way at home, then I can preach that in the pulpit.

And then I can tell somebody, "When you don't hear what I say, just do what I do."

And so I've tried to live knowing, like Pastor Westbrook said, that pastoring and parenting are somewhat the same.

Because pastoring, you're telling people how to live a way.

Parenting, you got to show them.

- That's true.

- And so if I got to show them, then my job is made much easier if I just model it.

Meaning also transparency has to be a great part of your life.

- That's right.

Yeah.

- You can't be so split in how you live that you can't allow your children to see what's really real.

My children have seen me cry.

They've seen me frustrated.

They've seen me in moments where I've been angry.

And I've had to treat them real enough to be able to come back to them and say, "Hey, look, "probably shouldn't have said that.

"And I'm sorry.

This is who I am and all that."

- That's big.

- In church, likewise in church.

I might say something and then I have to come back and say, "Look, y'all, that was my human moment."

- Yeah.

- This is what it is and all that.

But I strive to try to be one way always.

It takes too much time to... - Yeah, I love that.

So Pastor Westbrook, even talk more about that.

Has it ever been a challenge for you to, you know be the leader of the church and be this... You know, I don't like to use, when I'm with pastors, I make sure I'm trying [laughing] to say the right words, but be this like uplifting man and then, you know, walk almost in perfection what how some of your congregation might see.

But then at home, be transparent.

Cry, be sad, make mistakes and say, "Hey, I shouldn't have done that."

Has it been a challenge for you?

- So the difference between, I think, myself and them is I was 40, thirty-nine, when I started pastoring.

- Okay.

- So I got an opportunity.

Now, I'm grateful to God that he didn't call me at 20.

- Yeah.

- He didn't call me at six.

- Yeah.

- So I got to make a lot of mistakes- - Yes.

- Before the cameras showed up.

- Yeah.

- Wow.

- I got a chance to make a lot of mistakes before members showed up.

I got a chance to make a lot of, I figured out a lot of things without people watching me, right?

- Absolutely.

- But even as a pastor, when we started our church 12 years ago, crazy thing, and I'm probably the only pastor that ever prayed this.

I say, "Don't let us grow fast."

- Oh, I prayed it.

- Wow.

- Oh, yes sir.

- Don't let us grow fast.

And when I said it, my wife looked at me like, "What?"

I said, "I need to make mistakes first."

And I want to make it before the masses show up.

- Yeah.

- Wow.

- I believe in, you know, people that know me think I'm lights, camera, action.

But if you know me, know me, you know I'm a process guy.

And everything takes, it's always a process.

I don't really look at the promise, I look at process.

And so for me, I never really had that issue of having to learn myself in a pulpit.

- Yeah.

- I knew me before I got there.

- Absolutely.

- So when Devin became secure, then Pastor Devin can be whatever Pastor Devin needs to be.

But my whole existence wasn't in being Pastor Devin.

- Absolutely.

Yeah.

- Wow.

- And I think sometimes when I see younger pastors, they've leaned more into growing their ministry side than growing "me".

- Yeah.

- And so I think God gave me an opportunity to kind of develop as a person, as a man, find, I got enough trophies doing me that I don't need them as Pastor Devin.

- I like that.

- That's amazing.

I think that's important what you said.

You had a chance, I think 39, 40 is when you got into, you know, really into the ministry.

To make a mistake.

- Pastoring.

- Pastoring, sorry.

Sorry.

- Grew up in church, - Gotta get my words right.

- When I started pastoring I was-- - So you had the chance to make the mistakes and grow and then even prayed about not growing the congregation too much.

Let me figure this thing out first.

And God was able to find favor and be patient with you because he could have said, no, I'm going to give you the biggest thing right now.

I know you can lead this congregation.

That's amazing.

Pastor Hayes, talk to us about, you know, the foundation that you want to leave when it comes to your children.

Like as a pastor, as a community leader, what kind of foundation or spiritual foundation do you want to leave for your children to, I guess, aspire to be or model or things of that nature?

- Well, one, I'm somewhat different in this transparent era of life.

I don't want to just be a person where my son, if I was to transpire and rest with the Lord, he would be the next "preacher" because I was a preacher.

Neither one of my children, none of our children.

I want our name to have a biblical integrity.

- Yeah.

- Okay.

- To where I was imperfect.

I made mistakes, but I was able to teach from my mistakes.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Capitalization is real in the church and in parenting.

And when I say capitalization, if we can't fix what we want for tomorrow, the Bible says tomorrow's got enough trouble of it's own.

- That's right.

- So we must focus on the aspect of today.

Each one of us are pastors, but we made prominent mistakes.

And we still going to make them.

So if I was to leave, when the Lord do call me home, one thing I want to be is that my children will know he was trusted by God - Amen.

- As a father and a pastor.

Not so much about money and insurance and that stuff comes by planning.

But I want to live the calling that he has for me.

- Wow.

That's amazing.

And then like you said, you don't have the pressure.

You're not putting the pressure on your children - No.

- To be pastors.

- Right, right.

- You trying to set up a spiritual foundation at the end of the day that they're, you know, walking in the line of God, right?

- Exactly.

- They're leading of a spiritual relationship with God.

- Correct.

- That's big.

Pastor Singleton, talk more about your foundation that you want to kind of leave with your children.

What does that legacy look like for you?

Is it kind of similar to Pastor Hayes or is it a little bit different?

- Yeah, it's similar.

I think every believer has a similar... - End goal.

- Yeah.

End goal.

You know, the end of it is that all might know Jesus, but know how to live for him-- - Wow.

- And know how to be who he has them to be without the restraints of traditionalism, without the restraints of trying to impress, without the restraints of insecurities and things of that nature.

Just learning how to be you and walk with God.

- Yeah.

- I grew up in a church where it was really... And I thank God for the old saints.

I'm not crucifying anybody.

- Right.

- But I grew up in a church where a lot of stuff was really superficial.

The antics and all that kind of stuff kind of locked us into a prison of trying to become, instead of having what Paul Tillich says, "The courage to become who God has ordained for you to be."

- Correct.

- I want to leave a legacy that shows my children, and not even just my children, and when it's time to go, like Pastor Hayes says, because that ain't going to happen no time soon, praise God.

[group laughing] But when it's time to go, when I'm 'bout 90, 100, praise God.

- 101.

- Yeah.

What you said.

- Go ahead and push for it.

- What you said, man.

They'll know that he strove to live for the Lord in the earth, but not being too uptight to show people how to live for the Lord and still enjoy life.

And for them to be able to take on that and say, "Lord, I'm living for you, "but I'm in the earth with the responsibility to live out "what your desire is for me, both vocationally and spiritually."

You know, that I'm natural and spiritual as well.

- That's important.

- Yeah.

- That's important.

Pastor Westbrook, we got a couple minutes.

I want you to, if you had one thing, you say you have five kids, right?

- Five.

- If there's one thing that you want to tell all your kids as a pastor, as a father, the most important thing for you to tell them right now, what would that be?

- Older I get, the more I think about legacy.

Right?

And so when I think about legacy, I really want them to understand obedience over convenience.

- Wow.

- Obedience over convenience.

- Yeah.

- Sometimes it's easy to follow the trend, follow the crowd.

- Especially in this day.

- It's very easy to just do what everybody else is doing.

Oh, this is trending.

Let me do that.

- Yeah.

- Well, this is where it's at.

Let me go do that.

My life has never been about convenience.

It's always been about obedience though.

And so if I can leave them with that, I think that encompasses so much even in their own individual lives.

I think our jobs as pastors and fathers, fathers and pastors, is to introduce them to Jesus and not to church.

Introduce them to Jesus.

No religion, but relationship.

- Relationship.

- And if we can help cultivate that relationship wherever the obedience comes in, then let me follow God in that.

- Yeah.

- Right.

Some people are elected to a church.

I had to be obedient to plant one.

- Yes sir.

- It's just a different type of thing, right?

So if I could give them that, I want them to know that it's, that serving God does pay off.

- Yes.

Yeah.

- Absolutely.

- And serving God does pay off, which means sometimes having to not go the way of the crowd.

- Yeah.

- Having to not follow the trend.

And if you just be obedient to him, I promise you, what you think you've given up, serving him pays off.

What you think you're sacrificing, it's not really a sacrifice when you start reaping that.

Everything you sowing, when you start reaping it like, I should have done that years ago.

- Yes sir.

- Because that was my testimony.

I should have started this years ago.

- Yeah, me too.

- I wish I wouldn't have been a track star.

I wish I'd started doing this years ago.

What could I have changed if I started years ago?

- Yes, sir.

- Wow.

- So I don't want them to make the same mistake I made and play too long, yeah.

- Real quickly, real quickly.

We got about 30 seconds.

- He just brought up something.

I started pastoring when I was 21, but I was put in a church.

Prior to that, I heard the Lord say, "Start my church."

But the convenience of being put in the church-- - Made you-- - Made me say, "Oh, well, I'm going to have to deal with all this all day."

But let me tell you something.

The church I planted was far more peaceful than the church I was placed in.

- Wow.

- Obeying God-- - Yes.

- Is far more peaceful than trying to make your own route.

And even when it's, when it's God, even the hardships are enjoyable.

- Wow.

- You got the grace for it.

- Yeah, you got a grace for it.

There is an anointing for it.

You can only operate in the lane you're called to.

- That's right.

- You know, outside of that, there's a struggle and all that kind of stuff.

But yeah, I agree with that.

- Obedience over convenience.

- Yes, sir.

- Pastor Hayes, I got a couple of seconds.

If there's one thing that you can give to the audience today being who you are, being a pastor, being a spiritual leader, being a community leader, if there's one thing that you even give your kids, if they were looking in the camera today, what would you say?

- Seek God not to be built like me.

Ask them for their own creative pattern.

- Yeah.

- Wow.

- For them.

They need their own identity.

- Wow.

I think more pastors, just me personally, I think people need to hear that.

I think they need to hear that, I think a lot of... And my dad is not a pastor.

My mom wasn't in, you know, the church like that, but I can only imagine as a, what they call a PK, a preacher's kid, it is... What's the word I'm looking for?

- It's a load, man.

- It's a load.

The responsibility is heavy, you know?

So I think this is amazing.

This is important.

Thank you all for being transparent, honest, open, "obedience over convenience".

I'm going to start using that.

- Yeah.

- It's important for our viewers here.

- I'mma give you my Cash App.

[Chima laughing] - I appreciate it.

Today's conversation reminds us that faith is more than something practiced on Sunday mornings.

It's something lived every day.

For these fathers, leadership begins at home, guiding their children with love, wisdom, and faith.

To Pastor Devin Westbrook, Pastor Timothy Hayes, Sr.

and Pastor Andrew Charles Singleton, thank you for sharing your stories and reminding us of the powerful role fathers play in shaping the next generation.

I'm Chima Onwuka, and this has been Fatherhood, where we uplift voices and redefine legacy.

We'll see you next time.

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